|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/12/2009 6:41:28 PM
|
|
|
EaZiE
Posts: 75
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline
|
I'm doing a bible study and the author is "begging to differ" with most Christians view that God is in essence Love. He claims God's essence is not Love, but Holiness. It seems his point is to fix the whole cheap grace thing which is understandable.
The bible spells it out clearly that God is Love. It also says that God is Holy.
My thoughts are that true love is holy. We as fallen humans may call leniency grace. This is the way I think the author has come to the so called dichotomy. But with God there is no dichotomy. Yet, I think that Love covers a broader spectrum in its truest sense. "it rejoices not in iniquity, but in the truth". If Holiness means separate, it is not God's intent to be separate. But He is Holy because He is Love. And because He is the only One that is Love.
Any thoughts? Should the characteristics of God not be separated at all?
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/12/2009 9:25:28 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 2572
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
Status: offline
|
Jesus Christ preached love, yet He did not validate tolerance of sinful behavior. Love denotes not only compassion and understanding, but discipline and mercy (Proverbs 13:24).
Our society tends to grab hold of the God depicted in "Jesus Loves Me" and want to sweep the God of Justice under the rug because frankly, He's no longer en vogue.
I recommend you view this clip in its entirety to give your own question some context: HERE
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/12/2009 9:50:32 PM
|
|
|
tenderandgentleheart
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
|
God is indeed Holy but he is also love, I would say both are right. God can not be around sin as He is Holy so it was sin that sepatared man from God. That is why Jesus had to died for us on the cross. So we could have a loving relationship with the living God.
Psalm 97: 12
Rejoice in the Lord, you who are righteous, and praise his holy name.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/13/2009 9:25:52 AM
|
|
|
DougHorton
Posts: 544
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
quote:
Any thoughts? Should the characteristics of God not be separated at all?
God's essence is NONE of His characteristics. They merely describe Him. But the author is correct. True love is characterized by godly love, but God is not primarily composed of love. He loves. As you say His love is holy love, but also what his loves is holiness. God also hates. He hates wickedness and His hatred is evil (not morally evil) in that it brings bad consequences on evildoers, i.e. punishment. In this aspect, we see that God is also righteous and that His righteousness is holy and loving.
And so forth...
The only word that we have to describe the actual essence of God is spirit. What you are referring to are God's inherent characteristics.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/13/2009 2:28:57 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 96
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness?
Whatever you conceive God to be...He is not.
The answer of the Bible is simply, "through Jesus Christ our Lord". In Christ and by Christ, God effects complete self-disclosure, although He shows Himself not to reason but to faith and love. A.W. Tozer
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/13/2009 6:02:43 PM
|
|
|
EaZiE
Posts: 75
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline
|
Thanks for the insightful answers. They all helped clear up a little bit for me. I think that all of God's characteristics must be acknowledged if we are to have a true understanding of Him. I just don't know if we are in the place to prioritize those characteristics. And if holiness is meant to distinguish all of His acts, whether it be judgment or mercy perhaps it does cover a broader spectrum.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/13/2009 8:05:25 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
quote:
Should the characteristics of God not be separated at all?
God's "characteristics' or "attributes" are manifestations of His Divine "essence" (if you wish to use this word, which BTW Scripture does not use).
God is Love, God is Light, and God is Life. God is also absolute Holiness. And God is also the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is also the Resurrection and the Life.
Attempting to use any of these as the "essence" of God is bound to fail, and will merely put God in a box.
God is simply God. That is why He simply calls Himself "I AM".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/14/2009 11:19:06 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 1203
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
God is the ultimate truth which is inclusive of everything holy or righteous. This can be summed up I think in the word holiness:
Holiness
Ho"li*ness\, n. [AS. h[=a]lignes.]
1. The state or quality of being holy; perfect moral integrity or purity; freedom from sin; sanctity; innocence.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/17/2009 3:41:35 PM
|
|
|
EaZiE
Posts: 75
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline
|
After further reading on a few commentaries I think that I'm correct in disagreeing with the author of the study I'm in. The following quotes from commentaries on 1 Jn. 4:8 will help to explain my thoughts:
Jamieson, Fausset Brown Commentary:
God is love--There is no Greek article to love, but to God; therefore we cannot translate, Love is God. God is fundamentally and essentially LOVE: not merely is loving, for then John's argument would not stand; for the conclusion from the premises then would be this, This man is not loving: God is loving; therefore he knoweth not God IN SO FAR AS GOD IS LOVING; still he might know Him in His other attributes. But when we take love as God's essence, the argument is sound: This man doth not love, and therefore knows not love: God is essentially love, therefore he knows not God.
Adam Clarke's Commentary:
....It has been well observed that, although God is holy, just, righteous, etc., he is never called holiness, justice, etc., in the abstract, as he is here called Love. This seems to be the essence of the Divine nature, and all other attributes to be only modifications of this.
Wesley's Commentary:
....God is often styled holy, righteous, wise; but not holiness, righteousness, or wisdom in the abstract, as he is said to be love; intimating that this is his darling, his reigning attribute, the attribute that sheds an amiable glory on all his other perfections.
Matthew Henry:
.... his love must needs shine among his primary brightest perfections; for God is love (1Jo_4:8), his nature and essence are love, his will and works are primarily love. Not that this is the only conception we ought to have of him; we have found that he is light as well as love (1Jo_1:5), and God is principally love to himself, and he has such perfections as arise from the necessary love he must bear to his necessary existence, excellence, and glory; but love is natural and essential to the divine Majesty: God is love.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/17/2009 5:38:28 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1298
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
Well I must disagree. Is love an essence? Actually, is Spirit? If essence is the defining measure of who God is, then He can be catalogued and put on display, because that is exactly what essence is. Essence is the fundamental or very measurable quantifying 'it' that makes anything up.
God is Holy. Yes, He is all those other things as well.....but let's not confuse our understanding with what God IS.
There are many things God does that are not considered love: The world is forever asking the question..."Well, if God is so loving, then why does He.......(fill in the blanks.let babies die, let people starve, let such disasters occur etc)
When Moses asked God His name, God replied: I AM THAT I AM.
I am that I am (Hebrew: àäéä àùø àäéä, pronounced Ehyeh asher ehyeh) is a common English translation (King James Bible and others) of the response God used in the Bible when Moses asked for his name (Exodus 3:14). It is one of the most famous verses in the Torah.[citation needed] Hayah means "existed" or "was" in Hebrew; "ehyeh" is the first person singular imperfect form. Ehyeh asher ehyeh is generally interpreted to mean I am that I am, though it more literally translates as "I-shall-be that I-shall-be."
from Wikipedia
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/17/2009 6:36:49 PM
|
|
|
DougHorton
Posts: 544
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
quote:
If essence is the defining measure of who God is, then He can be catalogued and put on display, because that is exactly what essence is. Essence is the fundamental or very measurable quantifying 'it' that makes anything up.
Essence is not necessarily measurable or tangible. It has nothing to do with being able to put something on display. It does seem to be important in identifying something, and that is not a bad thing because that is what the Bible is all about, God revealing Himself to us so that we will know Him.
# S: (n) kernel, substance, core, center, centre, essence, gist, heart, heart and soul, inwardness, marrow, meat, nub, pith, sum, nitty-gritty (the choicest or most essential or most vital part of some idea or experience) "the gist of the prosecutor's argument"; "the heart and soul of the Republican Party"; "the nub of the story"
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/18/2009 10:55:39 AM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1298
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Essence is not necessarily measurable or tangible.
Then why bother to try..............
essence:
1 a: the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b: the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence <a painting that captures the essence of the land> c: the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is
2: something that exists : entity
Webster's Dict.
According to the dict. def, it is absolutely a definition
One thing more, with regards to the OP, are we discussing God the Father only, or the Trinity...because it would seem to me, that if we are looking into God's essence we must also consider the Trinity....is the Trinity then part of God's essence?
< Message edited by solarflare -- 2/18/2009 11:06:05 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/18/2009 11:59:47 AM
|
|
|
DougHorton
Posts: 544
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
quote:
Then why bother to try..............
Because we are human and need descriptions in order to understand things.
What is the essence of liberty? freedom? hatred or love? thought? pain? There are many unmeasurable and intangible things which we describe. In order to communicate these ideas we need verbal handles that communicate common conceptions.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/18/2009 12:10:32 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1298
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Because we are human and need descriptions in order to understand things.
My point exactly. And also the point of the dictionary description.
I was referring to you saying
quote:
Essence is not necessarily measurable or tangible
I was pointing out that it is measurable...if you really want to define the word, that is.
quote:
What is the essence of liberty? freedom? hatred or love? thought? pain? There are many unmeasurable and intangible things which we describe. In order to communicate these ideas we need verbal handles that communicate common conceptions.
So is this just kind of like a philosophical discussion then? As far as the above goes, they are far more definable than the 'essence' of the invisible God.....
Perhaps we could define the essence of God as a Creator.....(I'm not, I'm just throwing that out there)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/18/2009 12:20:22 PM
|
|
|
DougHorton
Posts: 544
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
Yes, it pretty much is philosophy. There is nothing wrong in that. Theology is the queen of sciences and Philosophy is her hand maiden.
quote:
quote:
Essence is not necessarily measurable or tangible
I was pointing out that it is measurable...if you really want to define the word, that is.
I still hold to that statement. measure the essence of liberty. Touch and handle the essence of great literature like Moby Dick. Sometimes essence is measurable. Sometime essence is tangible. But not always.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/18/2009 4:14:56 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1298
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
If essence is the definition, I would have to go with Spirit...everything else would be an attribute of His essence.......
I would not measure things we hold to or understand as any kind of equivocal standard to understand what the essence of God may be.
God IS Spirit....not one of many, but the Only.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/18/2009 4:50:52 PM
|
|
|
DougHorton
Posts: 544
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
You've come around to the same thing I posted back in post #5:
quote:
The only word that we have to describe the actual essence of God is spirit. What you are referring to are God's inherent characteristics.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/21/2009 11:04:50 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 1203
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
We are told to love God and to love other and if we obey these two commandments we have fulfilled the law.
God tells us to be holy as he is holy so if we obey His two commandments we will be holy as God is...seems to me that love has something to do with holiness.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/22/2009 5:40:25 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1298
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
Are you saying the law is God's essence?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 2/23/2009 1:10:46 PM
|
|
|
EaZiE
Posts: 75
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
God is Holy. Yes, He is all those other things as well.....but let's not confuse our understanding with what God IS.
There are many things God does that are not considered love: The world is forever asking the question..."Well, if God is so loving, then why does He.......(fill in the blanks.let babies die, let people starve, let such disasters occur etc)
I think its important to distinguish between what God does (i.e. desires) and what God allows. All men are separated from God and His protection as they are born in this world in sin. In His love He doesn't bless man (spiritually, and often physically) in their fallen condition. Furthermore, man in his fallen state is under sentence to death and Satan urges God to pass the judgment. In God's sovereignty sometimes He does let bad things, or rather purposes bad things, because He works it together for good. Sometimes he may allow an evil ruler to persecute Christians, but they are driven to rely on God. Other times He takes that leader out because He is harming God's intended order in the world. It is beyond me as to His ways.
But as to His character He has revealed Himself as the God who wants (desires) to restore man to a loving relationship with Him. I think that is a distinguishing mark of Christianity. We believe in a God of Love. "We have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love. And He that dwells in love dwells in God and God in Him."
I do think it is important on acknowledging the love of God we don't forget all His attributes--holiness, righteousness, just, perfect. The word love as understood biblically (I think charity brings some clarification) implies action that is done for the good of another. If we forget His other attributes we may think He is not loving if He doesn't agree with our plans or our own ideas of what love is. I don't think man would understand love in truth without the holiness of God. The bible tells me that I love God when I obey what He says. Only by the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/17/2009 4:31:10 PM
|
|
|
EaZiE
Posts: 75
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline
|
Not surprisingly, I'm not settled on this. Essence defined implies the physical aspect of something which may not be correct wording when speaking about God. Parousia is the greek word for coming which means near essence. What happens to a person when God comes can be in the form of punishment or reward. Rom. 2:6-11. The text says the difference between the two is obedience to the law. More importantly, it's the heart of the law that one is instructed to obey.
Mt.22;37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly:
Mt.5:17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
I conclude that God loves. What one does is a result of what one is.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/17/2009 6:47:52 PM
|
|
|
prolifepj
Posts: 982
Joined: 9/12/2008
From: just over yonder
Status: offline
|
Ok, admitedly, I haven't read through all of this, so its likely been said, but I'll add my two cents worth in. My thoughts on scanning this are...and I'm not so sure about the word 'essence' but while G-d most certainly is love, the angels surrounding the throne are not crying, "LOVE! LOVE! LOVE!" but rather, "HOLY! HOLY! HOLY!"
_____________________________
Hashivenu Adonai elecha vena shuvah
Chadesh, chadesh ya meinu
chadesh yameinu kekedem
|
|
|
|
|
RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/17/2009 10:55:09 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
quote:
Should the characteristics of God not be separated at all?
God's essence is (1) love, (2) light, and (3) life. That is what Scripture declares in the first epistle of John. Light is not only God's actual glorious light, but His absolute holiness, righteousness, truthfulness, faithfulness, wisdom and knowledge.
And yes, God's attributes are not to be separated into various components, since God is simply the great "I AM" with all attributes in perfect harmony and balance, and all three Persons of the Godhead in absolute harmony and balance.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
