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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 3:53:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
I live in So. Cal. Each person is different, of course and for many who are vocal about their homosexuality, they do wear it with honor. There are still many, however, who practice in the sin and don't declare it out of shame. And it would make sense for the vocal ones to admonish those who are silent...don't we do the same things as Christians?
What their doing isn't the big issue, it's the motive and the fact it's order to further their cause which is based clearly on sin...
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I would urge you to join me in trying not to apply absolutes to the situation. I would argue and believe the majority are vocal because they don't want to stand alone against a society that has been historically against them.
I would say your argument is ignoring the fact that part of the agenda is to legitimize the behavior...
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Way to buy into the media hype.
The media hype where I live is pro-gay without question...
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Isn't acceptance a form of love? To have their behavior accepted and by default their lifestyle legitimized, wouldn't that confirm that there are people who care for them?
And it will further entrench their belief that how they live is ok.... Hardly a positive thing... You might as well help plan the thief's next bank job...
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Who empathize with them? I am not suggesting we love them to make them think it is OK to practice homosexuality, I am suggesting we love them as Jesus commanded us to so that they might come to know Jesus.
What you suggest sound a lot like making them feel it is ok to practice homosexuality...
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What's the point of turning them away from a homosexual lifestyle unless they come to Christianity.
How can they come Christianity without be turned away?
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Being heterosexual won't save them: being a follower of Christ will.
Being a follower of Christ will exact change...
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And being a follower of Christ comes the acceptance that His Word is correct and that homosexuality is not OK.
Yes, so the acceptance has to come from the those who OPPOSE God's word, the homosexuals... Sorry, but Christians aren't the problem... Those who serve their desires are...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 3:57:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
Most homosexuals that you've seen are vocal. That's because you don't see much of the ones that are not vocal.
I see them all the time... I live and work among them... Sonoma County...
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They are vocal because they are discriminated against, persecuted, and denied equal rights.
Oh I am sure that is in the mix, but the foundation is the desire to make what is wrong, right... And that is a big reason why they are vocal
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 4:17:16 PM
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letusreason
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
Behavior has always been discriminated against. Christians have gone through persecution the world over for behaving in a matter becoming or being of a Christian.
Hooooooooooooold on there pardner!
Are you saying Christians are identified and defined by their behavior??
Fallacy city here we come.
_____________________________
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 4:20:32 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
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From: Canyon Country, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
Behavior has always been discriminated against. Christians have gone through persecution the world over for behaving in a matter becoming or being of a Christian.
Hooooooooooooold on there pardner!
Are you saying Christians are identified and defined by their behavior??
Fallacy city here we come.
OK, I used the wrong word. I should have said people are persecuted for behavior AND beliefs.
Thank you for the correction. 
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 4:26:45 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 869
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
The comparability with homosexuality and the things I listed are 1. It's a choice and 2. Are activities that help shape your definition of yourself. My sincere belief is that for many, homosexuality is an identity crisis. You can disagree with that but that is my reasoning for using the analogies I did.
You seem to be really confusing things quite a bit.
Homosexuality DOES NOT identify the person it defines the SIN. Identity is not a biblical concept . If it not , why deal with spiritual matters with nonspiritual terms?
It is not an identity crisis. And the Bible does not list an IC as sin at anywhere does it?
I'm not disagreeing I'm trying to untangle your conveluded ball of fishing twine posing as reason
_____________________________
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 4:39:26 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
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From: Canyon Country, CA
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quote:
I would say your argument is ignoring the fact that part of the agenda is to legitimize the behavior...
With legitimacy comes accepting. I merely gave more depth to your analysis and used the word love.
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The media hype where I live is pro-gay without question...
I addressed this earlier in a different comment. I meant you were buying into the media's portrayal of gays that all of them are angry people.
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And it will further entrench their belief that how they live is ok.... Hardly a positive thing... You might as well help plan the thief's next bank job...
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What you suggest sound a lot like making them feel it is ok to practice homosexuality...
What would you do? Speak words from the Word that homosexuality is a sin? Something most have already heard? What would you do if they didn't respond? In fact, why should they take the time to get to know us if we don't even bother to know them?
I'm not even going to justify your analogy with a decent response.
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How can they come Christianity without be turned away?
The same way all sinners do, silly.
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Being a follower of Christ will exact change...
That's the point.
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Yes, so the acceptance has to come from the those who OPPOSE God's word, the homosexuals... Sorry, but Christians aren't the problem... Those who serve their desires are...
Right, because Christians don't serve their desires everyday? That's what sin is! We oppose God's Word with our actions by sinning. The only difference is we recognize our need for Christ and that He is our savior. The acceptance that God's Word is truth and becoming a Christian does not make the temptation of your own desires disappear. On the contrary, the target on your back grows and you become tempted further.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 4:59:48 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
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From: Canyon Country, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
The comparability with homosexuality and the things I listed are 1. It's a choice and 2. Are activities that help shape your definition of yourself. My sincere belief is that for many, homosexuality is an identity crisis. You can disagree with that but that is my reasoning for using the analogies I did.
You seem to be really confusing things quite a bit.
Homosexuality DOES NOT identify the person it defines the SIN. Identity is not a biblical concept . If it not , why deal with spiritual matters with nonspiritual terms?
It is not an identity crisis. And the Bible does not list an IC as sin at anywhere does it?
I'm not disagreeing I'm trying to untangle your conveluded ball of fishing twine posing as reason
You're partially right. We're supposed to define homosexuality as their sin. Unfortunately, we don't stop there and I believe it has only served the GLBT community in dawning the mantra of: "I am a homosexual. This is who I am". You are 100% correct that it should only be an identification of sin, though.
BTW what is IC? :/
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 5:47:45 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
Ichiban
The Church is not a social club; It is a community. It is not a membership that defines the community, it is the partnership. And the idea that people need to stop practicing homosexuality completely before coming in to Christ's community is absurd. Would I prefer they did? Absolutely! Bu I can't expect people to triumph over their sins without help from their community.
I agree that the church is not a social club. Yet, there is something about your message that comes across as if your trying to recruit for a social club. I also agree with you that sinners don't have to stop sinning before entering the doors of a church. At the same time, once someone learns of and professes Christ, they cannot remain in bondage to that sin. The homosexual lobby wants to be accepted with no expectation of change.
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If you become a Christian, supposedly you gain the perspective of knowing what God says is right and wrong. And since, as a Christian, you would know homosexuality is wrong then they can begin to fight against the temptations instead of blindly committing sin. I would compare it to having sex before marriage. A guy had sex all of the time before becoming a Christian. But now, he sees it as wrong because that is what the Bible says. But he has a hard time stopping because his desires for women don't go away and he continues to actively struggle in the sin.
Yes, I know about this all too well. The fight is something I have learned to control better over time. Also, having worked with sex offenders I have learned much about how to work with people to bring about change. We have tgo change attitudes, values and beliefs to change behavior. Frankly, I don't think much of the Christian community is willing to put forth the effort to change attitudes, values and beliefs.
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This comparison is totally illegitimate. A much more accurate analogy of Homosexuality is sex with animals or sex with children. Curious how you didn't use those examples.
I have used this analogy many times. It always results in heated responses.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 5:58:18 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
I agree that the church is not a social club. Yet, there is something about your message that comes across as if your trying to recruit for a social club. I also agree with you that sinners don't have to stop sinning before entering the doors of a church. At the same time, once someone learns of and professes Christ, they cannot remain in bondage to that sin. The homosexual lobby wants to be accepted with no expectation of change.
Thanks for the advice. I'll try to be more aware of how I present the Church.
I agree that you should do all you can to free yourself from the bondage that is sin. Part of my identity in Christ is that I do try to shake off my chains. What the "homosexual lobby" wants, in the end, is irrelevant to someone who struggles with homosexuality and becomes a Christian. Only Christ can fill their needs and large part of serving Christ is allowing Him to have His way with you. It's what I mean when I say that our focus should be on the spiritual aspect of someone's life, rather then the physical. No use in making someone stop practicing homosexuality if they don't turn to Christ. That is all I tried to say.
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Yes, I know about this all too well. The fight is something I have learned to control better over time. Also, having worked with sex offenders I have learned much about how to work with people to bring about change. We have to change attitudes, values and beliefs to change behavior. Frankly, I don't think much of the Christian community is willing to put forth the effort to change attitudes, values and beliefs.
And that saddens me  It just creates the vicious cycle we've come to know.
quote:
I have used this analogy many times. It always results in heated responses.
Which I why I choose not to use it.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 7:20:49 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ichiban
With legitimacy comes accepting. I merely gave more depth to your analysis and used the word love.
With legitimacy come a deeper entrenching of the sin of homosexuality...
quote:
I addressed this earlier in a different comment. I meant you were buying into the media's portrayal of gays that all of them are angry people.
They are not all angry, just lost... All at odds with God...
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What would you do? Speak words from the Word that homosexuality is a sin? Something most have already heard? What would you do if they didn't respond? In fact, why should they take the time to get to know us if we don't even bother to know them?
It's a lie to exclude the fact that homosexuality is a sin... How do you address the need for a Savior? Any mention of Christ and the cross carries with it a message of guilt...
What do you do?
God loves you, carry on?
People don't always respond... Not everyone wants to be saved, and in the end to address the issue on any level implies that something is not right...
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The same way all sinners do, silly.
You seem to believe they can come to Christ and remain in sin...
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That's the point.
Are you sure... From what you have posted I get the sense that one could a lead a homosexual lifestyle and be a Christian...
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Right, because Christians don't serve their desires everyday?
They are just like homosexuals? Christians are slaves to their sinful nature?
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That's what sin is! We oppose God's Word with our actions by sinning. The only difference is we recognize our need for Christ and that He is our savior. The acceptance that God's Word is truth and becoming a Christian does not make the temptation of your own desires disappear. On the contrary, the target on your back grows and you become tempted further.
What target are you referring to?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 7:54:59 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
With legitimacy come a deeper entrenching of the sin of homosexuality...
We are stubborn people. There have been a lot of entrenched homosexuals for a very, very long time. They didn't need acceptance for that.
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They are not all angry, just lost... All at odds with God...
I agree.
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It's a lie to exclude the fact that homosexuality is a sin... How do you address the need for a Savior? Any mention of Christ and the cross carries with it a message of guilt...
What do you do?
God loves you, carry on?
People don't always respond... Not everyone wants to be saved, and in the end to address the issue on any level implies that something is not right...
I agree with everything you implied here except that we don't need to feel guilty for our sin (though you are undoubtedly right that guilt comes along with it). You seem to think that I wouldn't bring my sword with me to battle (to use my Ephesians reference) against homosexuals. It's the first thing I pick up and the thing I never want to put down.
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You seem to believe they can come to Christ and remain in sin...
The goal is always to be like Christ more then I was yesterday and more like Christ tomorrow then I am today. Yes, it's a cutesy phrase but I will always remain in sin. I don't believe you can remain in sin in the sense that you resign yourself to sin and that God will simply forgive you because he's a "nice guy". You ask for forgiveness, you receive forgiveness.
I struggle with masturbation, for example. I have for 5 years. If I were to die tomorrow I believe my place in heaven is reserved (though definitely not deserved). If I replaced the word masturbation with homosexuality I don't believe the results would be any different. We're people who commit the same sins over and over again and no matter how hard I work at it I always find myself back at that place again. No matter how much I convince myself it is wrong and I shouldn't do it, for the past 5 years I've continued to fail in my walk n the Lord, in that area.
Do you believe differently? If so, why?
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Are you sure... From what you have posted I get the sense that one could a lead a homosexual lifestyle and be a Christian...
Whoa whoa whoa. Apparently you missed the part where I said TRUTH WITH LOVE. I apologize if you felt I was coming from a position that was saying homosexuality was OK. I wasn't implying that. I am just suggesting to talk with and love those who would consider us enemies.
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They are just like homosexuals? Christians are slaves to their sinful nature?
In Christ we are free from the bondage of sin. But you didn't say that or imply that. You said that homosexuals serve their own selfish desires and my question to you is: "You don't?"
quote:
What target are you referring to?
The target of temptation.
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Come and discover Japan's spirituality, with me!
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 8:50:13 PM
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Veritas
Posts: 526
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
This comparison is totally illegitimate. A much more accurate analogy of Homosexuality is sex with animals or sex with children. Curious how you didn't use those examples.
I have used this analogy many times. It always results in heated responses.
Why do you suppose that is? Do you understand the difference between acts between consenting adults and acts where there is no consent?
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 9:29:18 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Why do you suppose that is? Do you understand the difference between acts between consenting adults and acts where there is no consent?
'Consent' isn't the ultimate determiner of correct human behavior. Just because an adult brother and sister (or I suppose in this case, brother and brother) consent to a physical relationship, it doesn't mean the state should sanction it.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 9:34:01 PM
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Marcus.
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There are moral acts that the Lord Our God approves of and then there are the immoral acts He disapproves of. Consent is irrelevant.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 11/17/2008 9:44:15 PM >
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 9:38:10 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
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From: Canyon Country, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Just because an adult brother and sister (or I suppose in this case, brother and brother) consent to a physical relationship, it doesn't mean the state should sanction it.
I disagree to a large extent because with this mind set, Christianity can easily be limited. My argument is that it should not be the role of the state to encourage or discourage behaviors. Rather, it is the responsibility of those who inhabit the state to encourage and discourage behavior. Basically: Do you want the state to do the Church's job?
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 9:58:02 PM
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HisFish
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
My argument is that it should not be the role of the state to encourage or discourage behaviors.
Really?. You don't want the state to discourage acts such as murder, rape, arson, kidnapping etc.? I sure do.
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magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 10:02:21 PM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
My argument is that it should not be the role of the state to encourage or discourage behaviors.
Really?. You don't want the state to discourage acts such as murder, rape, arson, kidnapping etc.? I sure do.
Rephrase:
There are some who believe that the state should not encourage or discourage behaviors that don't cause harm to another person.
< Message edited by Ichiban -- 11/17/2008 10:20:52 PM >
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 10:37:51 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
It's what I mean when I say that our focus should be on the spiritual aspect of someone's life, rather then the physical. No use in making someone stop practicing homosexuality if they don't turn to Christ. That is all I tried to say.
Yet, the physical is interfering with the spiritual. As long as they are practicing, their thinking is not changed. That's how Christ transforms us. He changes our attitudes, values and beliefs which changes our thinking which changes our behavior. How are we going to efect the spiritual life of someone when their mindset is focused on worldly pleasure?
As for my using the analogy of homsexuality being akin to pedophilia and bestaility. It's most often met with hostility by those enslaved in sexual sin. Yet, once they get done yelling, we've been able to engage in dialogue about sexual deviance. The message of the culture is to pursue what makes you feel good. The message of Christ is to be obedient to Him. Once our thinking changes to His will, the messages of the culture seem polluted.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 10:44:27 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
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quote:
There are some who believe that the state should not encourage or discourage behaviors that don't cause harm to another person.
How does incest or beastility harm others?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 11:13:06 PM
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Veritas
Posts: 526
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Why do you suppose that is? Do you understand the difference between acts between consenting adults and acts where there is no consent?
'Consent' isn't the ultimate determiner of correct human behavior. Just because an adult brother and sister (or I suppose in this case, brother and brother) consent to a physical relationship, it doesn't mean the state should sanction it.
You quoted my questions, but didn't answer them.
I didn't say consent was the ultimate determiner of human behavior. I asked why do you suppose the discussion becomes heated when one confuses homosexuality with pedophilia and bestiality. And if you understood the difference between consent and non-consent. Do you have answers to these questions?
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/17/2008 11:31:08 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
I asked why do you suppose the discussion becomes heated when one confuses homosexuality with pedophilia and bestiality.
Where's the confusion? They're all forms of sexual deviance. Seems to me the only difference is "consent."
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/18/2008 12:16:03 AM
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Veritas
Posts: 526
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
I asked why do you suppose the discussion becomes heated when one confuses homosexuality with pedophilia and bestiality.
Where's the confusion? They're all forms of sexual deviance. Seems to me the only difference is "consent."
If you don't see that consent makes a big difference, the confusion is yours.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/18/2008 12:20:39 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You quoted my questions, but didn't answer them.
I didn't say consent was the ultimate determiner of human behavior. I asked why do you suppose the discussion becomes heated when one confuses homosexuality with pedophilia and bestiality. And if you understood the difference between consent and non-consent. Do you have answers to these questions?
Well I am certain homosexuals resent the comparison to those behaviors, and so try to differentiate them by attempting to differentiate them by the ability of a party to 'consent' to the behavior in question. But the point (as zamdad rightly pointed out) is whether or not the behaviors are right to begin with, whomever consents to the behavior in question. Realizing that incest could concievably involve mutual 'consent' shows us that rightness doesn't turn on consent.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/18/2008 12:31:40 AM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Yet, the physical is interfering with the spiritual. As long as they are practicing, their thinking is not changed. That's how Christ transforms us. He changes our attitudes, values and beliefs which changes our thinking which changes our behavior. How are we going to effect the spiritual life of someone when their mindset is focused on worldly pleasure?
My train of thought is that you get GLBTs through the door (of your church community) and you work on it from there. Let them see the truth and then the Spirit work in them. Do you think this is the wrong way to go about it? Obviously each case is different but where do you suggest we start?
quote:
As for my using the analogy of homosexuality being akin to pedophilia and bestiality. It's most often met with hostility by those enslaved in sexual sin. Yet, once they get done yelling, we've been able to engage in dialogue about sexual deviance. The message of the culture is to pursue what makes you feel good. The message of Christ is to be obedient to Him. Once our thinking changes to His will, the messages of the culture seem polluted.
The tone of the conversation will differ based on who you talk to. For some, they will respond to that metaphor, favorably. For most, they won't. I prefer a softer tone though I knew the people I was talking to so it definitely helped.
Thanks a bunch :D
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 11/18/2008 12:32:49 AM
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Ichiban
Posts: 97
Joined: 11/14/2008
From: Canyon Country, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
There are some who believe that the state should not encourage or discourage behaviors that don't cause harm to another person.
How does incest or beastility harm others?
Incest is emotional abuse and bestiality is animal abuse.
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