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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 9/17/2008 3:34:59 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 875
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Holy Scripture is the inerrant Word of God and anything outside of it must be questioned. ...but apparemtly the interpretation of it has to be challenged if that interpretation is errant or invalid...
That what some of us here are doing - challenging misintepretation and mis-appropriation in the name of "the inerrant Word of God"...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 10/24/2008 12:02:56 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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Posted by Ezra #1513This is the false doctrine of the RCC parading as truth. The funny thing is you left out the Sacraments, so do you believe in salvation through sacraments or not? You also left out the Catholic Church. That is not a work but an institution. Does that mean you do not believe in salvation through your church?
I've highlighted the last sentence from a previous post - (forgive me, I've re-read back through other postings and may have missed it in prior postings, however after this was posted - no one seemed to address it).
My understanding is, that in order for a person to obtain salvation, they must be a member of the Catholic church. That no one outside of the Catholic church will be able to obtain salvation.
www.vatican website
Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One
The Profession of Faith
Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation.
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."
and further down:[/b]
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
If this is true, then the Catholic church is presenting a stumblingblock for all of those that might believe in the "gospel message" that both Jesus and His Apostles preached and taught when they were establishing His church.
In HIS gospel message and the message that He sent the Apostles out with - there was no stipulation of having to be a "member" of any particular church or earthly organisation, in order to obtain salvation.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 10/24/2008 12:48:10 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 145
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
Status: offline
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quote:
My understanding is, that in order for a person to obtain salvation, they must be a member of the Catholic church. That no one outside of the Catholic church will be able to obtain salvation.
Your understanding is not correct.
This is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Being baptized into the Church is the normative way to be saved and in the beginning of Christianity there was only one Church.
Logically, when one becomes a Christian they would also be a member of that Church.
Salvation outside the Church is possible.
Notice the end of paragraph 846 you quoted from the CCC
quote:
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it
Paragraph 847 goes on to say:
quote:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.(LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.)
Here is some more info:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 10/24/2008 8:35:40 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dona Nobis Pacem
quote:
My understanding is, that in order for a person to obtain salvation, they must be a member of the Catholic church. That no one outside of the Catholic church will be able to obtain salvation.
Your understanding is not correct.
This is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Actually it is...
Many RC are unfamiliar with their own faith !
Also, the RCC believes no forgiveness to non-RC
Unam Sanctam
His Holiness Pope Boniface VIII
November 18, 1302
URGED BY FAITH, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: "One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her," and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 10/24/2008 11:15:49 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dona Nobis Pacem
quote:
My understanding is, that in order for a person to obtain salvation, they must be a member of the Catholic church. That no one outside of the Catholic church will be able to obtain salvation.
Your understanding is not correct.
This is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Being baptized into the Church is the normative way to be saved and in the beginning of Christianity there was only one Church.
Logically, when one becomes a Christian they would also be a member of that Church.
Salvation outside the Church is possible.
Notice the end of paragraph 846 you quoted from the CCC
quote:
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it
So what about the people who don't believe that the Catholic church was founded as necessary by God through Christ and they get baptized in the name of the Father/the Son/the Holy Spirit in another church?
Paragraph 847 goes on to say:
quote:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.(LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.)
Here is some more info:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
Peace,
DNP
I have visited this site and basically it says that if you are not a member of the Catholic church - you will not obtain salvation.
While these first two paragraphs sound wonderful - acknowledging that some may be saved with no relation to the Catholic church -
The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.
This next paragraph immediately after the ones above, indicates that they "can be saved" - ?????? - if they already have the possibility of salvation without the normative necessity of being Catholic- why is there any need for the following paragraph and what it refers too?
These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).
The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God. ( a rather obvious conclusion to come too...considering that God is a just and loving God?)
However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.
So basically - if you are not a member of the Catholic church, there is no hope of obtaining salvation.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 10/24/2008 11:39:30 PM
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kielbasa
Posts: 166
Joined: 6/1/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
So basically - if you are not a member of the Catholic church, there is no hope of obtaining salvation.
Nope--not what we think, not what we are taught, not what we believe.
Here is the part of the Catechism you missed, Bonlee:
quote:
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
_____________________________
"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 10/25/2008 11:29:49 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bonlee
The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.
This next paragraph immediately after the ones above, indicates that they "can be saved" - ?????? - if they already have the possibility of salvation without the normative necessity of being Catholic- why is there any need for the following paragraph and what it refers too?
So basically - if you are not a member of the Catholic church, there is no hope of obtaining salvation.
Read your Bible...it tells you how to be saved !
The Catholics will tell you how to become a Catholic.
Refer to the papal bull I posted earlier.
You know how the RC holds the opinion of the pope !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 10/26/2008 3:45:01 AM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline
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Thank you for that Keilbasa.
I checked out the vatican website:
www.vatican website
Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One
The Profession of Faith
Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."
and further down:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it
I'm assuming of course that the "Church" mentioned in the catechism is referring solely to the Catholic church - no other.
And if that is so - it clearly states that "all salvation is through the Church" (Catholic church) - and that it is necessary for salvation.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 11/17/2008 12:34:29 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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The clarification in 846 is that "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"
It's saying that if you do come to believe that the Catholic Church is THE Church, and you refuse to join it or you leave it while believing it to be Christ's Church, then you would not be saved. But for people who don't believe it to be THE Church, they fall under section 847.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 11/17/2008 2:17:55 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
The clarification in 846 is that "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"
It's saying that if you do come to believe that the Catholic Church is THE Church, and you refuse to join it or you leave it while believing it to be Christ's Church, then you would not be saved. But for people who don't believe it to be THE Church, they fall under section 847.
This still means that some will not be saved because they did not believe in the Catholic Church. And that is a travesty and a mockery of the Gospel.
The Gospel is crystal clear: "Believe on THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and thou shalt be saved", yet here is a corrupt church which dares to substitute itself for the Lord from Heaven.
Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 11/21/2008 6:07:29 PM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/8/2008
Status: offline
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We are saved by faith alone. Faith is our reaction to what God has said in His word. Our reaction by faith is the works. Without works, faith is dead, because faith produces works.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sleeker
quote:
You said this, "Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would."
I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith.
Read the interpretations. Pope John Paul II said the third interpretation is right (Dominus Iesus).
Also, Roman Catholics believe that faith and good works are needed, and that one usually brings about the other. Read the section of "What You Must Do to Be Saved" here.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 11/22/2008 2:03:58 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
The clarification in 846 is that "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"
It's saying that if you do come to believe that the Catholic Church is THE Church, and you refuse to join it or you leave it while believing it to be Christ's Church, then you would not be saved. But for people who don't believe it to be THE Church, they fall under section 847.
This still means that some will not be saved because they did not believe in the Catholic Church. And that is a travesty and a mockery of the Gospel.
The Gospel is crystal clear: "Believe on THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and thou shalt be saved", yet here is a corrupt church which dares to substitute itself for the Lord from Heaven.
Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
If a person comes to believe that the Catholic Church is THE Church founded by Christ, and that Christ wants them to be a part of His Church, then by rejecting His Church they would in effect be rejecting Him. How is this difficult to comprehend?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 11/25/2008 2:59:00 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
Status: offline
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quote:
If a person comes to believe that the Catholic Church is THE Church founded by Christ, and that Christ wants them to be a part of His Church, then by rejecting His Church they would in effect be rejecting Him. How is this difficult to comprehend?
There are several problems with this statement:
1. Since the Catholic Church is NOT the Church founded by Christ, believing this would be a false belief.
2. Since Christ makes every child of God an integral part of His Church the moment they are saved, being a member of the Body of Christ is not an option. It is part and parcel of being "in Christ". Therefore "wanting" someone to be a part of the Church is not even necessary for Him. Upon regeneration, the Holy Spirit immediately "baptizes" every believer into the Body of Christ, and this is "the Church".
3. Rejecting the Catholic Church is not equivalent to rejecting Christ. Indeed, it is the exact opposite.
4. In light of Scripture, it is difficult to comprehend how any church on earth could have the unmitigated gall to make salvation dependent upon believing in that Church and its rites and rituals. Salvation is in Christ alone, plus nothing. Indeed, Christ Himself is our salvation. Therefore His name is Jesus or Yeshua.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 12/11/2008 4:59:59 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
If a person comes to believe that the Catholic Church is THE Church founded by Christ, and that Christ wants them to be a part of His Church, then by rejecting His Church they would in effect be rejecting Him. How is this difficult to comprehend?
There are several problems with this statement:
1. Since the Catholic Church is NOT the Church founded by Christ, believing this would be a false belief.
No offense, but judging by the long spirited debate about the Catholic Church in this thread and others, I would offer that your assertion is not fully proved.
quote:
2. Since Christ makes every child of God an integral part of His Church the moment they are saved, being a member of the Body of Christ is not an option. It is part and parcel of being "in Christ". Therefore "wanting" someone to be a part of the Church is not even necessary for Him. Upon regeneration, the Holy Spirit immediately "baptizes" every believer into the Body of Christ, and this is "the Church".
That's a very... Catholic point of view. We believe that baptism is salvic and upon being baptized one is joined to the Church. That's why we accept Protestant baptisms as valid assuming they were done in the Trinitarian formula.
quote:
3. Rejecting the Catholic Church is not equivalent to rejecting Christ. Indeed, it is the exact opposite.
Again, I respectfully disagree. There is sufficient historical and scriptural evidence for one to argue that the Catholic Church is THE Church founded by Christ, if there wasn't how on earth would these debates be able to continue on for so long? :)
Anyways, you're still missing the point. Suppose for example that some other denomination is correct, that they are THE Church and that one should follow their belief structure to properly know Christ and follow Him. For the point of argument, let's say the Seventh Day Adventists are 100% right. Now, if one comes to believe in everything the Seventh Day Adventists believe, and they truly believe that the Seventh Day Adventist Church is THE Church talked about in Scripture, yet they still refuse to join the Seventh Day Adventist, would that not be in a sense a rejection of Christ?
quote:
4. In light of Scripture, it is difficult to comprehend how any church on earth could have the unmitigated gall to make salvation dependent upon believing in that Church and its rites and rituals. Salvation is in Christ alone, plus nothing. Indeed, Christ Himself is our salvation. Therefore His name is Jesus or Yeshua.
It seems to me, that a Church which is confident of it's position as Christ's Church might be willing to say that. After all, Christ gave us His Church to help guide us to salvation. Our Lord has no problem with rituals and rites, the rites and rituals came from Him. After all, it was He who first offered up the bread and wine as His Flesh and His Blood and told us to "Do this in memory of me" And we see how even earlier, when the Israelites were wandering the desert, Our Lord set down rites and rituals for them to follow to achieve salvation from sin. Why would He not continue to do so through His Church?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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