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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/12/2008 3:55:59 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Why, pray tell, do you continuously, tediously, ignore the explainations of the legitimate use of the word worship? I don't; but, you guys do - continuously and tediously and erroneously.
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We don't think Mary is God, contrary to your presumptuous claims otherwise. I didn't say that you did. I did say, however, that RC takes the titles and attributes of God and gives them to Mary....and you do.
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Protestants have changed the rules a millennium and a half after Christ and then declared everyone else to be cheating. Nope, we never changed any rules, we're committed to the rules Christ handed down to us almost 2000 years ago. Never said you were cheating....just scripturally incorrect.
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Christians have asked Saints in heaven to pray for them from the earliest days of the Church. Well, we know that's not true.
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You can't find any early christian that claims we shouldn't. Sure, we can. There is not one Christian in Scripture who ever did. Seems they believed the Lord Jesus Christ taught them to pray to God and they, therefore, taught us to do the same.
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Your personal interpretation of Scripture might not agree but mine does. Who's right? You can throw out verse of Scripture and I can throw others back at you. In fact, there are no verses you can "throw out"....that's RC's problem. You do not have one single solitary verse which sanctions praying to anyone other than God - no, not one. Even if we were to accept your interpretation of the Rev verses, which we don't because its wrong, it would still offer no support for your position of praying to anyone other than God. Therefore, RC is totally without excuse for its doctrine.
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Why don't you try reading the writings and look at the practices of the earliest christians, the christians that literally learned at the feet of the Apostles? Why not try reading the Bible? In it you will find not one prayer to anyone other than God anywhere...unless, of course, idolatry is in view. Why not sit at the feet of the Lord Jesus as He commands us how to pray? Why sit at the feet of uninspired men?....especially when these men contradict the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Protestants have not "rediscovered" the Christianity that Catholics have "perverted."
I agree we have not "rediscovered" Christianity....we simply follow what we know has always been there. God has been gracious. He has left us His written Word, now though, we are none of us without excuse.
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Early Christian writings, their practices, do not agree with you. There would only be cause for concern if the earliest of Christian writings did not agree with me....but, they do.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/12/2008 4:18:31 PM
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loco79
Posts: 90
Joined: 6/18/2008
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If salvation were simply a matter of "me and Jesus", there would be no point to this clear biblical command.
• James 5:14 - "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him…"
• 1 Thes. 5:25 - "Brethren, pray for us."
• 2 Thes. 2:11 - "To this end we always pray for you…
• 2 Thes. 3:1 - "Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed on and triumph, as it did among you..."
• Acts 8:24 - "And Simon answered, "Pray for me to the Lord..."
• Colossians 1:3 - "We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you..."
• Colossians 1:9 - "And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you…"
• Colossians 4:2-4 - "Continue steadfastly in prayer, being watchful in it with thanksgiving; and pray for us also…"
• Hebrews 13:8 - "Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things."
The bible is therefore clear that we are to seek another believer's intercession for our spiritual benefit. It does not say that that petitioning is to stop once that believer has gone on to meet the Lord. In fact, because the believer is now beholding the face of God, his prayers are more effacious than they were on earth.
"After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." (Job 42:7-8)
All of these passages are teaching that God does not necessarily hear all of our prayers, and He does not necessarily grant our requests. These passages are teaching us that people, like Moses and Job, are the "righteous men" of James 5. They are successful in their supplications while a less spiritual Christian might not be. If these Christians were righteous on earth, are they any less righteous in heaven? Are they further removed from God? Do they have more or less "pull" with God?
Many Protestants accuse Catholics of praying to "dead people". This comment is specious since the saints in heaven are certainly not "dead" in the colloquial meaning of the term. For a Christian, death is merely a separation of body and soul. An atheist does not define death in these terms. For an atheist, death is the annihilation of existence. For the Christian, however, the soul is eternal and so is the body which will be raised on the last day - either to eternal glory or to eternal damnation. Hence, the saints in heaven may have their souls separated from their bodies, but this is not an argument against communicating with them. It is difficult to understand the Protestant presumption that having a human body is required for communication. Where is this belief taught in Scripture? No where.
Jesus said: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living" (Matt 22:32). The saints are alive in Christ Jesus because God is the God of the living and not the dead. Jesus' point in this passage is to reinforce the fact that the saints in heaven are TRULY living, and because they live, they can intercede with Christ just like any Christian on earth can intercede.
Even in the Old Testament, we learn that there are saints who are indeed alive. Take, for instance, this account from the first book of Samuel:
• "Then Saul said to his servants, "Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." And his servants said to him, "Behold, there is a medium at Endor." So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments, and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, "Divine for me by a spirit, and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you." The woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the wizards from the land. Why then are you laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?" But Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing." Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me." When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul." The king said to her, "Have no fear; what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth." He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance. Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do." And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Am'alek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines." Then Saul fell at once full length upon the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel; and there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night (1 Samuel 28:7-20).
This passage is clearly teaching that Samuel, when he was in Sheol (the abode of the dead), was aware of earthly matters. Now a Protestant might object to such an example being used to support the Catholic view. Instead, he will claim that this is an example of a demonic act by the witch, and therefore actually serves as a proof text against the Catholic view. This interpretation would be a sloppy reading of the passage, however. First of all, witches or sorcerers have no power over the living God. Therefore, the witch did not have power over Samuel, a prophet of God, to call him up from Sheol. Secondly, notice the witch's surprise at Samuel’s appearance. This suggests that she did not even conjure him up, but rather he appeared before she even attempted to do so! Thirdly, Samuel speaks of a prophecy that comes true and therefore demonstrates that he is still speaking for God and honouring him (28:19).
these are short snippets taken from Pacheco
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/12/2008 7:49:56 PM
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ayani
Posts: 194
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I guess to me the big question isn't 'how', but 'why'?
Prayer is a mystery: I have asked people to pray for me, but yet I don't have any expectation that the prayer will be more likely to be answered because I asked someone else to pray too. Why do I do it? I don't know.
Is God more likely to answer one person's prayer than another? I'm assuming that our Catholic brother would say 'yes, He is' (or else why would they ask for other's prayers?). What does it say about the nature of God if He will answer my prayer for someone to be cured of cancer, but wouldn't answer the Cancer sufferer's own prayer?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/13/2008 1:16:19 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 875
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Is God more likely to answer one person's prayer than another? That question for me is answered by this verse: "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful."
Why is it necessary for James to tell us that not just prayer, but fervent prayer, and not just from anyone, but from the righteous, is not merely effective, but very powerful?
This is the Scriptural message of James - some people's prayers are more effective (and, in fact, very powerful) than others.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/13/2008 4:47:35 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
The bible is therefore clear that we are to seek another believer's intercession for our spiritual benefit. Yep, the Bible is very clear we are to confess our sins to each other and pray one for another….hearing the confession of many saints in heaven lately? No?....then there continues to be no support for your doctrine.
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These passages are teaching us that people, like Moses and Job, are the "righteous men" of James 5 When spoken about in Job – he is quite physically alive and we know, for a fact, that James is speaking about the physically alive. Another verse which offers no support for your doctrine.
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Many Protestants accuse Catholics of praying to "dead people". Sure, since that’s precisely what you’re doing.
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This comment is specious since the saints in heaven are certainly not "dead" in the colloquial meaning of the term. Specious?.....that’s very funny since the only thing deceptive is trying to say someone who has died is not dead. You have no support for such a “specious” claim.
While they may be very spiritually alive in heaven the Bible categorizes them as dead because they are no longer with us here on earth after their body is put to the ground. That's the true witness of Scripture....not this gobbledegook about the dead not being dead.
More deception, as RC twists the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in an effort to bolster their personal doctrines. When Christ says that God is the God of the living not the dead, He is speaking in reference to the resurrection of the dead. Stop taking Christ's words out of context and read what He actually says in Mat 22:29-32 and Mark 12:23-27.
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Hence, the saints in heaven may have their souls separated from their bodies, but this is not an argument against communicating with them. Scripture is clear – we are not to attempt to communicate with the dead…and we all know the meaining of the word dead even though some won't admit it. Nothing new under the sun “it depends on what the meaning of the word “is” is....rationalization par excellence!
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It is difficult to understand the Protestant presumption that having a human body is required for communication. Where is this belief taught in Scripture? No where. When has teaching something not taught in Scripture ever bothered RC? Never.
The only “communicating” with spirits we see in the Bible are those pagans as they “communicated” with their gods. Of all the beautiful examples of prayer we can find in Scripture, RC has to emulate what the pagans do....why?
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Secondly, notice the witch's surprise at Samuel’s appearance. This suggests that she did not even conjure him up, but rather he appeared before she even attempted to do so! If you want to know “who” conjured the “spectre” of Samuel look to Satan – not God. Samuel is a child of God and as such is in heaven not in just some “abode” as it appears is the RC view…and a very aberrant view at that.
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This interpretation would be a sloppy reading of the passage,…. Obviously, he speaks of his own work.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/13/2008 4:49:42 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
quote:
Is God more likely to answer one person's prayer than another?
That question for me is answered by this verse: "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful."
Why is it necessary for James to tell us that not just prayer, but fervent prayer, and not just from anyone, but from the righteous, is not merely effective, but very powerful?
This is the Scriptural message of James - some people's prayers are more effective (and, in fact, very powerful) than others.
All of which is totally unrelated to praying to the dead since it is proven James is speaking of those presently alive in the local church.
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:"
BTW, Scripture teaches that all who have become saved, all who have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them are "righteous". These are the "righteous" people James says to call for when someone is sick....the elders and members of the church. It is the prayers of these which is more effective...not some personally chosen and named "saints" in heaven.
< Message edited by kelman -- 11/14/2008 4:55:52 AM >
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/13/2008 8:42:12 PM
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loco79
Posts: 90
Joined: 6/18/2008
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Kelman:
First you say that what we believe is unsciptural, then you say we are not interpretting it correctly and yet none of what i have shown contradicts the truth of the word. My question is why do you keep trying to dismiss what the lord has told us.
The lord has said on more than one occasion that there is but one body, and that his God of the living and not of the dead. I am going straight from the bible, and yet you choose to ignore it. How should the writers of the bible reworded it to better suit your theology?
It is disheartning to see that you say we distort the word and yet you refuse to address what partaking in the body of christ really means. the bible shows us that we die unto christ and are one with him in spirit. Why is that you limit the power of the spirit? and where is your sciptural evidence to do so?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/14/2008 1:07:28 AM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
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kelman wrote,
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Why not try reading the Bible?
And you presume ukfan and his fellow Catholics have not? Why? Because we disagree with your interpretation? Look around, kelman. There are plenty of non-Catholic Christians who disagree with your interpretation of Scripture as well. Do you accuse them of not "reading the 'Bible,'" too? It's unbecoming to attempt to disparage the reputation of an opponent, for lack of a better term, in a debate. I think it is obvious the Catholic Christians you are interacting with her are quite familiar with Scripture. It just so happens we believe you are the one in error in your interpretation. Yet, you will not find us accusing you of not "reading the Bible." Anyone can "read the Bible," kelman....not so many are able to glean the Truth of God from it, apparently.
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In it you will find not one prayer to anyone other than God anywhere...unless, of course, idolatry is in view. Why not sit at the feet of the Lord Jesus as He commands us how to pray?
At the Lord's feet is where one learns that His love is manifest in those who love Him and that Love, which comes from God, must be shared in order to truly be "the Love of God." IOW, anyone who thinks their "salvation experience" is good enough to "save" them while they never give a thought for someone else is utterly "unbiblical" and absurd...perhaps you agree? When did the Lord Jesus Christ "command us how to pray?" If you're referring to the Lord's Prayer [or the "Our Father," for us Catholic Christians], how can you ignore the utterly communal nature of the very opening line? Yes, Christ taught us to pray "OUR Father," not "my father," or "father of those who still are alive and sitting in the pew next to me." If you miss Christ's teaching on the Nature of God and His love and the oneness of the Body of Christ, you'll never understand the beauty of the Communion of Saints.
It makes me sad.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/14/2008 4:43:34 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
Status: offline
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quote:
First you say that what we believe is unsciptural,... Yes, that's correct, it is.
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...then you say we are not interpretting it correctly and yet none of what i have shown contradicts the truth of the word. It's more than just "interpretting incorrecty". There is evidence of twisting the Word hoping to make it conform to presupposed doctrine. Point of fact, all which you have presented contradicts Scripture. You have absolutely no support from the Bible to pray to anyone other than God.
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My question is why do you keep trying to dismiss what the lord has told us. Best hold that question until you produce something God has actually declared. One thing you will never ever be able to produce is sanction for praying to anyone other than God.
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The lord has said on more than one occasion that there is but one body, and that his God of the living and not of the dead. It is disingenuous, at best, to repeatedly lift a few words out of context as you do with Mat 22:29-32 and Mark 12:23-27. Christ is quite clear He is speaking of the Final Resurrection of the dead at the end of time and not, that the dead are not dead.
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It is disheartning to see that you say we distort the word and yet you refuse to address what partaking in the body of christ really means. You haven't asked me "to address what partaking in the body of christ really means" so how could I refuse? Most assuredly we know it does not mean praying to the spirits in heaven....Scripture will simply not allow that idea.
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the bible shows us that we die unto christ and are one with him in spirit. All saints are united to Christ who is their Head by His Spirit. All who are redeemed are spiritually united with Christ. This, though, has nothing to do with praying to anyone other than God.
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Why is that you limit the power of the spirit? You'd have to actually show some evidence that I do before your question is worthy of an answer. And since you won't be able to do that....
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/14/2008 4:59:43 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
Why not try reading the Bible? And you presume ukfan and his fellow Catholics have not? Why? What's with you guys anyway? You have a habit of leaving out pertinent parts of the context.
I was asked why don't I try reading life stories about saints to learn about prayer. I replied with "why not try reading the Bible" indicating that that is the place to learn about prayer. Why try to assign nefarious motives to what was a perfectly reasonable response?......to make it easier to put your own particular twist on it?....not very nice.
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In it you will find not one prayer to anyone other than God anywhere...unless, of course, idolatry is in view. Why not sit at the feet of the Lord Jesus as He commands us how to pray?
At the Lord's feet is where one learns that His love is manifest in those who love Him and that Love, which comes from God, must be shared in order to truly be "the Love of God." Now, that is very sad. Apparently, you can only love God in a "group"....the truth is one can love God on a desert island. Besides, as usual you leave the context out and the subject matter.
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IOW, anyone who thinks their "salvation experience" is good enough to "save" them while they never give a thought for someone else is utterly "unbiblical" and absurd...perhaps you agree? What's your point since that is not the topic - praying to anyone other than God is. If you want to discuss your "group salvation", I'm sure there's an appropriate thread.
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When did the Lord Jesus Christ "command us how to pray?" Perhaps you're not aware; but, when Christ speaks - it is a command.
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If you're referring to the Lord's Prayer [or the "Our Father," for us Catholic Christians], how can you ignore the utterly communal nature of the very opening line? You're building a strawman. No one has argued against praying in groups.
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Yes, Christ taught us to pray "OUR Father," not "my father," or "father of those who still are alive and sitting in the pew next to me." When asked by "live" people how to pray the Lord answered "Our Father...." never once evoking, throughout all of Scripture, anyone other than God. Turning aside the commands of God concerning prayer should be troublesome to all who do so.
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If you miss Christ's teaching on the Nature of God and His love and the oneness of the Body of Christ, you'll never understand the beauty of the Communion of Saints. And if you miss the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ and the entire witness of Scripture, you'll never understand that prayer is to be addressed to God alone.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/14/2008 6:53:29 PM
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ayani
Posts: 194
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Is God more likely to answer one person's prayer than another? That question for me is answered by this verse: "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful."
Why is it necessary for James to tell us that not just prayer, but fervent prayer, and not just from anyone, but from the righteous, is not merely effective, but very powerful?
This is the Scriptural message of James - some people's prayers are more effective (and, in fact, very powerful) than others.
What would that tell us about God's justice?
When we pray, God responds at least partly based on the degree of righteousness of the person(s) asking? If a judge's verdicts and sentences are heavily influenced by his or her personal respect for the attornies pleading the case, would we consider that judge to be 'just'?
I fear prayer would be useless for me as I am not very holy or righteous, and could have no expecation being listened to.... Unless I were lucky enough for God to treat me as if I were righteous anyway...
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/14/2008 7:00:43 PM
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ayani
Posts: 194
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
All of which is totally unrelated to praying to the dead since it is proven James is speaking of those presently alive in the local church.
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:"
BTW, Scripture teaches that all who have become saved, all who have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them are "righteous". These are the "righteous" people James says to call for when someone is sick....the elders and members of the church. It is the prayers of these which is more effective...not some personally chosen and named "saints" in heaven.
Kelman:
What do we do with the 'Communion of the saints', whose existance we proclaim in faith when we recite our ancient 'Apostles Creed'? What is that 'communion of saints'? What is our relationship with them?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/14/2008 10:32:58 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
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kelman,
quote:
What's with you guys anyway?
What's with you, guy, anyway? That was one awesome response, kelman. I must admit....there is no other answer to that question than the one I presented. 
quote:
You have a habit of leaving out pertinent parts of the context.
As do you. [I won't drag "you[r] guys" into it, because I can't tell who they are!]
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I was asked why don't I try reading life stories about saints to learn about prayer. I replied with "why not try reading the Bible" indicating that that is the place to learn about prayer.
Exactly. And Christ Himself told us to pray "Our Father." What is so difficult to understand? Countless Scriptural references can be offered [and have been] to support Christ's "command" regarding prayer of the faithful. Being One Body in Christ means the One Body supports Itself. It means it can't function as a sole "member." St. Paul reiterates this fact eloquently in 1 Corinthians. It wasn't until modern times that the doctrine of the Communion of Saints was redefined by those with an eye to personal interpretation of Scripture. So don't tell us faithful Catholic Christians about the importance of "reading the bible."
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Now, that is very sad. Apparently, you can only love God in a "group"....the truth is one can love God on a desert island. Besides, as usual you leave the context out and the subject matter.
I have no idea why you continue to deny the clear teaching of Christ in Scripture regarding the Body of Christ, His Bride. You also have quite a knack for twisting words. I never said "you can only love God in a 'group.'" It isn't a question of "loving God in a group" or all alone. It is a question of what Scripture says regarding the Body of Christ which is disfunctional without ALL of its members. Talk to St. Paul if you disagree. Let me know if you need a reference. This Catholic Christian is familiar with Scripture, despite your misconceptions, BTW.
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What's your point since that is not the topic - praying to anyone other than God is.
The point is, any saint better be darned concerned about the well-being of other "saints" if the title is to hold true. If not, I'm not so sure what status the Lord Jesus Christ would confer on such a one. Not my place to judge.
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You're building a strawman. No one has argued against praying in groups.
Are you saying Christ was referring to "praying in groups?"  You're kidding, right?! I'm not referring to "praying in groups," I'm talking about how our Lord "commanded" [your word, not mine] us to pray. If you prefer to view His institution of the Our Father as a "command," that's OK with me, but you must notice the communal nature of the prayer. That, in itself, should be enough to convince you of the Truth of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. Even though Christ and Scripture affirm it, I'm sure you'll find a way to rationalize your own private interpretation.
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When asked by "live" people how to pray the Lord answered "Our Father...." never once evoking, throughout all of Scripture, anyone other than God. Turning aside the commands of God concerning prayer should be troublesome to all who do so.
If we're all praying to "Our Father," and Scripture affirms seeking other Christians to pray for us, I don't understand your consternation. I don't find it "troublesome" at all to rest assured those who love God and stand in His Presence are keeping my intentions in their prayers as all good Christians should do. In fact, they are the ones spoken of by Christ in Scripture...the redeemed, the ones He promised a share of His glory, inheritence, and knowledge. Why do you doubt the promises of God in Scripture?
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And if you miss the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ and the entire witness of Scripture, you'll never understand that prayer is to be addressed to God alone.
And if you continually ignore the fact that "pray" is a word with different meanings; sacrifice is the highest form of worship; God is Love and therefore those who are one with Him MUST love each other in order to be One with Him; that you are not infallibly interpreting a book that was not the rock upon which Christ built His Church; then it's no wonder you opted to deny the doctrine of the Communion of Saints.
I guess you prefer, along with many others, a "me and Jesus" approach. Which is fine, if you feel you don't need anybody else for anything.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/15/2008 5:48:33 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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ORIGINAL: ayani
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ORIGINAL: kelman
All of which is totally unrelated to praying to the dead since it is proven James is speaking of those presently alive in the local church.
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:"
BTW, Scripture teaches that all who have become saved, all who have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them are "righteous". These are the "righteous" people James says to call for when someone is sick....the elders and members of the church. It is the prayers of these which is more effective...not some personally chosen and named "saints" in heaven.
Kelman:
What do we do with the 'Communion of the saints', whose existance we proclaim in faith when we recite our ancient 'Apostles Creed'? What is that 'communion of saints'? What is our relationship with them?
Ephsians 3:14-19 tells us that all who are in union with Christ, those here and those who have left this earth are of the household of God. This fact cannot be used to biblically promote praying to spirits nor does the Apostles Creed offer any sanction to do such a thing.
We also see it expressed this way in Ephesians 4:4-7.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/15/2008 5:57:07 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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ORIGINAL: gatolover
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I was asked why don't I try reading life stories about saints to learn about prayer. I replied with "why not try reading the Bible" indicating that that is the place to learn about prayer.
Exactly. And Christ Himself told us to pray "Our Father." What is so difficult to understand? Hmm, where do you find me saying it was difficult to understand?
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Countless Scriptural references can be offered [and have been] to support Christ's "command" regarding prayer of the faithful. And not one of them supports praying to saints and Mary.
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Being One Body in Christ means the One Body supports Itself. It means it can't function as a sole "member." None of which supports praying to anyone other than God. And, of course, an individual can function as a sole "member" of the Body of Christ.
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It wasn't until modern times that the doctrine of the Communion of Saints was redefined by those with an eye to personal interpretation of Scripture. There's never been anything to "redefine" since the RC doctrine of the "communion of saints" is not to be found in Scripture. The Bible is clear as it speaks of the family of God and no where does it allow for praying to those who have died.
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So don't tell us faithful Catholic Christians about the importance of "reading the bible." The Bible's importance to Catholic Christians has been made quite evident.
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I have no idea why you continue to deny the clear teaching of Christ in Scripture regarding the Body of Christ, His Bride. Perhaps you might show us all where Christ is clearly teaching about praying to saints? And because we know you will be unable to do so, therefore, I judiciously deny your church's teaching which run in opposition to those of Christ's.
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You also have quite a knack for twisting words. I never said "you can only love God in a 'group.'" Nope, never got the hang of "twisting"....read your post you absolutely implied "group". In fact, you said: "It means it can't function as a sole "member."
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It is a question of what Scripture says regarding the Body of Christ which is disfunctional without ALL of its members. Please present the scripture which says what you claim. When the Bible speaks of "unity" it most certainly does not mean governmental unity.
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Let me know if you need a reference. Yes, let's see this reference to a "disfunctional" Body of Christ.
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The point is, any saint better be darned concerned about the well-being of other "saints" if the title is to hold true I don't disagree with you here; but, this has nothing to do with praying to those saints who have died.
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You're building a strawman. No one has argued against praying in groups. Are you saying Christ was referring to "praying in groups?" Nope.
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I'm not referring to "praying in groups,"......
.....but you must notice the communal nature of the prayer Okay. But, then it looks like you don't understand the definition of the word "communal".
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That, in itself, should be enough to convince you of the Truth of the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. Christ never implied the dead could or should be prayed to, in fact, the entire witness of Scripture scoffs at such a thing.
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Even though Christ and Scripture affirm it, I'm sure you'll find a way to rationalize your own private interpretation. The only one "rationalizing" is RC as it promotes a doctrine so out of step, so contraindicated by anything the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught.
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I don't find it "troublesome" at all to rest assured those who love God and stand in His Presence are keeping my intentions in their prayers as all good Christians should do Well, it should be "troublesome", to put it mildly, if one prays to the spirits of the dead since God gives no sanction to such practices. It should be "troublesome", to put it mildly, to flaunt the directions of the Lord Jesus Christ and all that is found in Scripture - where only God is prayed to.
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In fact, they are the ones spoken of by Christ in Scripture...the redeemed, the ones He promised a share of His glory, inheritence, and knowledge. No. The redeemed are all those whom Christ has saved, all those who have been indwelled by the Holy Spirit, all those who have been "born from above".
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And if you miss the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ and the entire witness of Scripture, you'll never understand that prayer is to be addressed to God alone.
And if you continually ignore the fact that "pray" is a word with different meanings;.... Please be so kind as to show us prayer to anyone other than God....excepting, of course, the pagans Scripture talks about.
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....that you are not infallibly interpreting a book that was not the rock upon which Christ built His Church; The Rock upon which Christ is building His church is Himself.
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....then it's no wonder you opted to deny the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. Of course, this RC doctrine should be denied. It simply is an invention of theirs....nothing to do with God or His "book".
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I guess you prefer, along with many others, a "me and Jesus" approach. Since He and He alone is the Redeemer....since He and He alone is the Mediator between God and man...since He and He alone is the Advocate....you betcha'.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/15/2008 6:21:01 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 347
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: kelman
I don't; but, you guys do - continuously and tediously and erroneously.
Yes, you do. I have quoted dictionary definitions to you many, many times and other people have as well. So once again, from
Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition
Main Entry: pray
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: plead; call upon for help, answer
Synonyms: adjure, appeal, ask, beseech, brace, commune with, crave, cry for, entreat, implore, importune, invocate, invoke, petition, recite, request, say, solicit, sue, supplicate, urge
Just a bunch of different words for ask.
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I didn't say that you did. I did say, however, that RC takes the titles and attributes of God and gives them to Mary....and you do.
No we don't. Because we know the prayers of the Saints can bring about miracles does not mean we think the Saints in heaven are the supreme source of those miracles. That would be God. The apostles in Scripture performed miracles and we don't give them attributes of God.
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Well, we know that's not true.
Well, sure if you ignore the pages of quotes from early Church Fathers. I wonder why there aren't any quotes from Christians saying we shouldn't do that?
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In fact, there are no verses you can "throw out"....that's RC's problem. You do not have one single solitary verse which sanctions praying to anyone other than God - no, not one. Even if we were to accept your interpretation of the Rev verses, which we don't because its wrong, it would still offer no support for your position of praying to anyone other than God. Therefore, RC is totally without excuse for its doctrine.
Have you ever wondered why Luther took books that were in the Septuagint, books that Jesus himself studied in the synagogues, and tossed them out?
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Why not try reading the Bible? In it you will find not one prayer to anyone other than God anywhere...unless, of course, idolatry is in view. Why not sit at the feet of the Lord Jesus as He commands us how to pray? Why sit at the feet of uninspired men?....especially when these men contradict the Lord Jesus Christ.
The early Church Fathers do not contradict Christ. They contradict your interpretation of Scripture, nothing more. And based on your denial of Scripture verses like "this is my body...this is my blood" it wouldn't really matter if the practice of prayers to the Saints were explicitly spelled out in one of the books of the protestant bible, there would be a creative protestant interpretation around it. Why hold on to your personal interpretation of Scripture and ignore 15+ centuries of Christian practice?
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There would only be cause for concern if the earliest of Christian writings did not agree with me....but, they do.
Well according to your interpretation, of course. According to my interpretation, and the majority of the Christian laymen, scholars, Saints and martyrs, they don't.
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"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/15/2008 9:54:17 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1500
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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Have you ever wondered why Luther took books that were in the Septuagint, books that Jesus himself studied in the synagogues, and tossed them out?
Actually, the Septuagint is the Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew Scripture/Jewish Canon, plus a few books that the Hebrew Scripture/Jewish Canon does not include. As such, Jesus most certainly did not use a Greek "Bible" (Septuagint) in the synagogue. Those are all Hebrew. And, though He might have been familiar with the Apocrypha, it's a known fact that the Apocrypha was not considered canon, and therefore would not have been considered inspired Scripture. Sort of like the fact that you might think that Pilgrim's Progress is a cool book, but would never consider it to be canon. Specifically, you have:
Torah: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
Nevi'im: Joshua, Judges, Samuel (same as 1 and 2 for Protestants only not split), Kings (same as 1 and 2 for Protestants only not split), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi
Ketuvim: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah (counted as a single book), and Chronicles (again same but not split).
Of course, this is only relevant if you have some verse from one of those "extraneous" books that would prove that praying to the saints and Mary is even remotely possibly Scriptural, at which point we can discuss whether or not that book should be considered Scripture.
So, do you have any verses from, say, Maccabees that would indicate that praying to the saints and Mary is a valid practice?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/15/2008 10:24:08 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 347
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Have you ever wondered why Luther took books that were in the Septuagint, books that Jesus himself studied in the synagogues, and tossed them out?
Actually, the Septuagint is the Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew Scripture/Jewish Canon, plus a few books that the Hebrew Scripture/Jewish Canon does not include. As such, Jesus most certainly did not use a Greek "Bible" (Septuagint) in the synagogue. Those are all Hebrew. And, though He might have been familiar with the Apocrypha, it's a known fact that the Apocrypha was not considered canon, and therefore would not have been considered inspired Scripture. Sort of like the fact that you might think that Pilgrim's Progress is a cool book, but would never consider it to be canon. Specifically, you have:
Torah: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
Nevi'im: Joshua, Judges, Samuel (same as 1 and 2 for Protestants only not split), Kings (same as 1 and 2 for Protestants only not split), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi
Ketuvim: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah (counted as a single book), and Chronicles (again same but not split).
Of course, this is only relevant if you have some verse from one of those "extraneous" books that would prove that praying to the saints and Mary is even remotely possibly Scriptural, at which point we can discuss whether or not that book should be considered Scripture.
So, do you have any verses from, say, Maccabees that would indicate that praying to the saints and Mary is a valid practice?
Uh, where did you get your history from? Nearly every quote from the NT that references the OT is from the Septuagint. Nearly every OT quote from Christ is from the Septuagint. This is not even debated among protestants.
As for the Intercession of the Saints in Maccabees, And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God." II Maccabees 15:14
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/16/2008 12:55:44 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1500
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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Uh, where did you get your history from? Nearly every quote from the NT that references the OT is from the Septuagint. Nearly every OT quote from Christ is from the Septuagint. This is not even debated among protestants.
... because they're also in Greek, and the Septuagint is Greek? Why would they get two separate translations for the same thing, despite the fact that Jesus probably primarily spoke Aramaic, especially when speaking to the Jewish crowds?
That doesn't change the fact that you stated that the synagogues Jesus went to... WITHOUT LEAVING ISRAEL... were using the Septuagint. Which is absurd. Even now most synagogues use Hebrew scripture in their formal readings (at least the orthodox ones do).
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As for the Intercession of the Saints in Maccabees, And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God." II Maccabees 15:14
Again, no indication whatsoever that Jeremiah was hearing the prayers of those on earth to him and passing them on. In fact, it seems rather unlikely, as Christianity hadn't even started yet so no early Christians were doing it, and Jews certainly don't pray to dead prophets. So whose prayers would he be passing on, exactly? It's not like any of us are disputing or even particularly surprised that the righteous dead talk to God. We're just questioning your ability and permission to talk to the righteous dead, and that verse doesn't help.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/16/2008 4:09:32 PM
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