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ORIGINAL: Odeliya

Nobody argues that our righteousness and salvation is not achieved by obeying the Law.

What is under debate here is , may I repeat
Instruction does not mean one is moral yet. Morality and righeousness - the true, God pleasing form of it - can not be legislated by a set of written rules. One can follow all the rules and still be immoral.

ex,. You can help widows and orphans and still be a God hating idolater, doing it for your own glorification, to please and brag about self

Do you agree that one can follow the instructions – obey the literal Letter of the Law -while neglecting the Spirit of it ? we are not talking in salvific sense, again, but God pleasing .

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Seeings you don't want to read all of it. Try looking at verse 49-52 you will be shocked at the answer. And it does not mention anything about sabbaths, gays and lesbians.

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ORIGINAL: kelman

I agree, the 4th commandment is not a part of the moral law. The ceremonial law, i.e., the command to offer burnt offerings and blood sacrifices, etc., are found throughout the OT. We don't go three times a year to Jerusalem or observe the seventh-day Sabbath because of Col 2:16-17 which says these things were a shadow of things to come.

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Besides, the Bible gives evidence of the Sunday Sabbath. We're told we are to bring our offerings early in the week. Paul preached on Sunday at Troas and, of course, the official beginning of the NT church - Pentecost Sunday.

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ORIGINAL: Odeliya

Elaborate of your position on the highlighted. What being cut off means to you? I presume not the loss of salvation?

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ORIGINAL: mcleod

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Bluethread
Context is of great importance in this quote from Hebrews chapter 4. Paul is telling us that some never entered the Sabbath rest because they did not combine it with faith (verse 2). He then goes on to tell us that, since they did not get the faith message, Adonai appointed another day through David (verse 7).

I am speaking in context with that passage from the letter in Hebrews.

Let put it this way no one will enter without faith, into God's eternal rest.
Just as I gave at one time of Jesus the Christ being the mana that fell from the sky. Jesus even said that the mana was a symbol of him, in John 6: 32-59.
If he can be that a symbol in bread, then he can also be possible a symbol in day as the author is writing about.

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Bluethread
He then goes on to tell us that, since they did not get the faith message, Adonai appointed another day through David (verse 7). This is not a replacement day after the death of the Messiah, but an additional day. We know this because Paul tells us that it was given to us through David.

You wrote to me about being in context, where can I see this appointment happening through David words about two sabbaths?
The sabbath in which you trust him for guidance through your daily journeys. And the time when you close your eyes for good.
Could that be what you are writing about?

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Bluethread
So, now we have two commandments regarding specific days of the week. The weekly Sabbath(day of rest) and today(day of faith).

Well for one thing I have don't have any problem for someone to rest on any given day of the week. In fact studies have shown that nature itself runs in cycles of six on and day off.
But this is where I must not agree with you on the sabbath rest is for, it is for everyday of the week. That is the problem with most christians today they will focus on one day and skip the rest of the six. When it is a total of seven days to serve and worship the Lord.
Some seem to want to put money or as someone else wrote commerce. As being a time to leave it alone. But as Yeshua taught you can not serve two master on any day of the week, Matt. 6:19-24.

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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
Since the terms ‘Moral Law’ and ‘Ten Commandments are synonymous, the church must now refer to the ‘Nine Commandments’ or come up with another law to replace the abrogated 4th C. Any suggestions?

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It’s true that ceremonial laws are found throughout the OT but the ‘Moral Law’ is only found in Ex. 20:3-17 and again in Dt. 5:7-21. Christians have no authority to excise any of the Ten Commandments or redefine morality. But we do have a duty to understand them all and obey them all.

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In the NT the day gets changed but the Commandment remains. Kelman cites only some of the evidence of this change.

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There is a sound, theological reason that the Commandment remains and the day changed

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ORIGINAL: Odeliya

Nobody argues that our righteousness and salvation is not achieved by obeying the Law.

What is under debate here is , may I repeat
Instruction does not mean one is moral yet. Morality and righeousness - the true, God pleasing form of it - can not be legislated by a set of written rules. One can follow all the rules and still be immoral.

ex,. You can help widows and orphans and still be a God hating idolater, doing it for your own glorification, to please and brag about self

Do you agree that one can follow the instructions – obey the literal Letter of the Law -while neglecting the Spirit of it ? we are not talking in salvific sense, again, but God pleasing .

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

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ORIGINAL: kelman

I agree, the 4th commandment is not a part of the moral law. The ceremonial law, i.e., the command to offer burnt offerings and blood sacrifices, etc., are found throughout the OT. We don't go three times a year to Jerusalem or observe the seventh-day Sabbath because of Col 2:16-17 which says these things were a shadow of things to come.

There is another way of seeing this passage.

Verse 16 is a conclusion, one can not come to a conclusion without refering to the topic earlier. So, where do we see it refered to earlier in Colossians. He begins the letter to those who have grown up in a greco/roman society by saying that he is happy that thay have been saved and that they should grow in their walk. (Col 1:13) "For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves . . ." He then takes the time to explain how the Messiah is superior to the dominion of darkness. So, what is this "dominion of darkness". He tells us in verse 1:21 "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior." He returns to explain all that has been done for us.

He then concludes, Col 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

It does not say, these things were shadows of things to come, it says they are, present tense. Nor does it say only shadows as you seem to imply. It could be because. So, what I think he is saying here isn't, don't let people judge you because you don't do these things. On the contrary, it appears to me to be saying, don't let anyone judge because you do observe these things.

Remember, we are talking about being delivered from "dominion of darkness" and "evil behavior". Could this refer to observing Adonai's appointed times. These are people that have been under the influence of idolatry, debauchary and mysticism in the greco/roman culture. Paul follows his conclusion by reinforcing this view. Col 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions." Do any of the things listed in verse 16 encourage the worship of angels. No, but greek and rome are well known for worship of the massengers of the gods. Therefore, I believe Paul is telling us that we should not let the world discourage us from gathering together at the appointed times rather than the times designated by the state.

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Besides, the Bible gives evidence of the Sunday Sabbath. We're told we are to bring our offerings early in the week. Paul preached on Sunday at Troas and, of course, the official beginning of the NT church - Pentecost Sunday.

The Sabbath to sunday issue is much too important to deal with in a simplistic fashion. So, if you would site the passages to which you are refering we can go over them in a more complete fashion.

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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
Since the terms ‘Moral Law’ and ‘Ten Commandments are synonymous, the church must now refer to the ‘Nine Commandments’ or come up with another law to replace the abrogated 4th C. Any suggestions?

Sure, recognizing the true intent of both the seventh-day and first-day Sabbaths would be a good start. The Bible is very clear that the seventh-day Sabbath was a part of the ceremonial law. It was a shadow of the fact that we are not to work for our salvation, that we are to rest in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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It’s true that ceremonial laws are found throughout the OT but the ‘Moral Law’ is only found in Ex. 20:3-17 and again in Dt. 5:7-21. Christians have no authority to excise any of the Ten Commandments or redefine morality. But we do have a duty to understand them all and obey them all.

Not so. The moral law is also found sprinkled through the OT. You cannot obey what you do not understand. The seventh-day Sabbath was a shadow pointing to the fact that salvation is all the work of God and we can do no work toward it. If we attempt to, we'll wind up like the man in Numbers 21 who picked up sticks on the Sabbath.

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While the seventh-day Sabbath was one of complete physical rest from work, the first-day Sabbath is one of intense spiritual work. We can look to Isaiah 58:13-14 to understand how we are to observe the Sunday Sabbath.

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If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

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In the NT the day gets changed but the Commandment remains. Kelman cites only some of the evidence of this change.

We can also include the Gospel accounts such as Mat 28:1, though, that would involve discussing the Greek and the incorrect translation found in most versions

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There is a sound, theological reason that the Commandment remains and the day changed

I would say there are sound biblical reasons why the spiritual aspect of the cermonial law of the seventh-day Sabbath is now observed on the first day of the week. Sunday is the day for being concerned about salvation and sending out the Gospel.

Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday. He experienced the resurrection and He is the first fruits of all those who become saved. We are raised from spiritual death when we become saved, and so, Sunday has everything to do with salvation.

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ORIGINAL: HardKnox
If a person "neglects the spirit of the law", et al, they have never obeyed the law at all.

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why did you tell me to read what Jesus said to the Pharisees?

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Note to Odelyah: I know the proper term is moed, however, I don't want to get sidetracked in making a linguistic connection between Shabbat and the moedim

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Also, I would not want to insult you with my limited knowledge of Hebrew linguistics.

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ORIGINAL: Odeliya

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why did you tell me to read what Jesus said to the Pharisees?

Because going thru the list of certain motions and acts doesn’t yet mean we are pleasing and truly worshipping God. You saying that doing a list of things on sat ,makes one pleasing to God

One can obey the letter of the Law without obeying the Spirit. Romans 2 tells us that circumsicion of the flesh doesnt make one Jew yet, not the one who is Outwardly, but Inwardly...

Your point of view seem to be promoting Phariseeism- but I am trying to clearly show you that Bible makes a clear distinction between true believers and hypocrites.

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ORIGINAL: kelman

It seems clear Paul is telling them to let no one, no doubt referring to the Jewish Christians, impose these "ceremonial" laws upon them. I say clear because Paul speaks of "meat, drink and holy days", iow, not to allow themselves to be pressured into obeying the ceremonial law. I see no evidence that Paul is speaking about "discourage us from gathering together at the appointed times rather than the times designated by the state".

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Besides, the Bible gives evidence of the Sunday Sabbath. We're told we are to bring our offerings early in the week. Paul preached on Sunday at Troas and, of course, the official beginning of the NT church - Pentecost Sunday.

We are told to collect money on the first day of the week because it would violate the Sabbath to do so. A collection and an offering are two different things. An offering is made at the Temple. A collection can be taken anywhere. The first can be done at anytime, depending on the offering. The second can be taken at any time. If you differ with me on either of these definitions, you would have to accept the related commandments as applicable today for it to have any significance.

Also, the first day of the week begins on what the romans would call saturday night. Paul could have been preaching on the weekly Shabbat and continued into the first day of the week following the ceremonial ending of the weekly Shabbat.

Finally, I believe Pentecost(the feast of weeks) occured on what would be called thursday today, since I believe the Messiah was executed on what would noe be called wednesday. Let's do the math. Pentecost is 50 days in greek and that is seven weeks plus one day as the Scriptures tell us in the Pentetuch(5 books). Now even if one believes in "good friday" the Sabbath(appointed time) of Pentecost would also be the weekly Shabbat not what is called sunday today.

The Sabbath to sunday issue is much too important to deal with in a simplistic fashion. So, if you would site the passages to which you are refering we can go over them in a more complete fashion.

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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight

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ORIGINAL: kelman
Sure, recognizing the true intent of both the seventh-day and first-day Sabbaths would be a good start. The Bible is very clear that the seventh-day Sabbath was a part of the ceremonial law. It was a shadow of the fact that we are not to work for our salvation, that we are to rest in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Alright, I think I understand. The Bible is clear that the Moral Code used to have ten principles but now it only has nine because one of those principles was abrogated by Christ. So the NT Bible should be edited in order to be correct but nobody ever got around to it.

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Not so. The moral law is also found sprinkled through the OT. You cannot obey what you do not understand. The seventh-day Sabbath was a shadow pointing to the fact that salvation is all the work of God and we can do no work toward it. If we attempt to, we'll wind up like the man in Numbers 21 who picked up sticks on the Sabbath.

So what God said in Ex. 31:13 is a mistake.

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The 4th C really is only about salvation. There is actually not a connection between the 4th C and the believer’s pursuit of sanctification.

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But we certainly don’t find that the ceremonial law was ‘written by the finger of God’ on stone tablets.

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While the seventh-day Sabbath was one of complete physical rest from work, the first-day Sabbath is one of intense spiritual work. We can look to Isaiah 58:13-14 to understand how we are to observe the Sunday Sabbath.

If rest from all physical labor was a necessary aspect of true Sabbath observance then Jesus broke the Sabbath. I dare say Jesus may have been more physically taxed on the Sabbath than on any other day of the week (Lk. 4:38-40).

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If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

There are some very interesting points in this Isaiah text. First, it’s from the OT and doesn’t mention ‘rest’ within the context of 4th C observance at all.

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I would say there are sound biblical reasons why the spiritual aspect of the cermonial law of the seventh-day Sabbath is now observed on the first day of the week. Sunday is the day for being concerned about salvation and sending out the Gospel.

Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday. He experienced the resurrection and He is the first fruits of all those who become saved. We are raised from spiritual death when we become saved, and so, Sunday has everything to do with salvation.

To deny that there is a spiritual significance to Sunday sabbath would be to reject the redemptive work of Christ.

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To overlook the immutability of the 4th C as an inseparable part of the Moral Law is to miss its biblical significance and necessitates re-writing God’s word. To ignore the promise of sanctification connected to 4th C observance is to attempt to ‘run the race’ in the flesh. An attempt that history shows us, can lead to apostasy and idolatry

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BTW, another aspect of 4th C observance that I haven’t seen discussed is the fact that time is a creation of God over which He remains sovereign. All time belongs to Him. He has graciously given six days to us in which to pursue our own pleasures and responsibilities, requiring only one that is exclusively devoted to Him. Isn’t it interesting that His people object to even one full day?

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

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ORIGINAL: kelman
It seems clear Paul is telling them to let no one, no doubt referring to the Jewish Christians, impose these "ceremonial" laws upon them. I say clear because Paul speaks of "meat, drink and holy days", iow, not to allow themselves to be pressured into obeying the ceremonial law. I see no evidence that Paul is speaking about "discourage us from gathering together at the appointed times rather than the times designated by the state".

It may seem clear to you that this is what Paul is talking about in (Col 2:16-17), but you have not clarified that to me. I showed you how I came to my conclusions, by using the context of the epistle. First, to not let anyone judge them on what they were eating and drinking,since it was different from what the general culture was consumming

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Second, regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day, which were not observed by general society, because these are a shadow of the things that were to come that remind us of the reality that is found in the Messiah. If you can do the same for your view point, then we can compare our differences and possibly come trulyclarify this matter for the both of us.

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I don't see anything "simplistic" about Paul preaching on Sunday at Troas(Act 20:7), bringing our offerings "early in the week"(1Cor 16:2), Pentecost Sunday and all other evidences of the first-day Sabbath.

You are correct these are not simple passages, one needs to understand that many would choose to come together for the breaking of bread at sundown on what is called Saturday to end Shabbat and begin the first day of the week. (Acts 20:7)That is why Paul spoke until midnight when he planned on leaving the next day.

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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight

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ORIGINAL: kelman
Sure, recognizing the true intent of both the seventh-day and first-day Sabbaths would be a good start. The Bible is very clear that the seventh-day Sabbath was a part of the ceremonial law. It was a shadow of the fact that we are not to work for our salvation, that we are to rest in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Alright, I think I understand. The Bible is clear that the Moral Code used to have ten principles but now it only has nine because one of those principles was abrogated by Christ. So the NT Bible should be edited in order to be correct but nobody ever got around to it.

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Not so. The moral law is also found sprinkled through the OT. You cannot obey what you do not understand. The seventh-day Sabbath was a shadow pointing to the fact that salvation is all the work of God and we can do no work toward it. If we attempt to, we'll wind up like the man in Numbers 21 who picked up sticks on the Sabbath.

So what God said in Ex. 31:13 is a mistake.

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Nope, no mistakes. Funny, though, how you ignore the word "sign"...think about it. A sign points to something; and, in this case, the rest from physical labor pointed to resting from our own work concerning salvation.

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The 4th C really is only about salvation. re is actually not a connection between the 4th C and the believer’s pursuit of sanctification.

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Sanctification is a result flowing from salvation.

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But we certainly don’t find that the ceremonial law was ‘written by the finger of God’ on stone tablets.

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What's your biblical evidence that the 4th must be a moral law?

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While the seventh-day Sabbath was one of complete physical rest from work, the first-day Sabbath is one of intense spiritual work. We can look to Isaiah 58:13-14 to understand how we are to observe the Sunday Sabbath.

If rest from all physical labor was a necessary aspect of true Sabbath observance then Jesus broke the Sabbath. I dare say Jesus may have been more physically taxed on the Sabbath than on any other day of the week (Lk. 4:38-40).

Wow....what a denial of some very clear passages found in Numbers 21....are you sure you even read them?

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If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

There are some very interesting points in this Isaiah text. First, it’s from the OT and doesn’t mention ‘rest’ within the context of 4th C observance at all.

This is not the physical rest commanded by God on the seventh-day Sabbath. It points to the NT Sabbath in which the Christian "delights" himself in the Lord and doesn't "do his own pleasure" - wash his car, go to a ballgame, etc. IOW, the Christian does the spiritual work of God - visit the sick, witness, study the Word, etc.

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I would say there are sound biblical reasons why the spiritual aspect of the cermonial law of the seventh-day Sabbath is now observed on the first day of the week. Sunday is the day for being concerned about salvation and sending out the Gospel.

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Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday. He experienced the resurrection and He is the first fruits of all those who become saved. We are raised from spiritual death when we become saved, and so, Sunday has everything to do with salvation.

To deny that there is a spiritual significance to Sunday sabbath would be to reject the redemptive work of Christ.

Since I haven't argued otherwise, I don't see the relevance of your comment.

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To overlook the immutability of the 4th C as an inseparable part of the Moral Law is to miss its biblical significance and necessitates re-writing God’s word. To ignore the promise of sanctification connected to 4th C observance is to attempt to ‘run the race’ in the flesh. An attempt that history shows us, can lead to apostasy and idolatry

This seems to be somewhat long on opinion....short on biblical evidence.

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BTW, another aspect of 4th C observance that I haven’t seen discussed is the fact that time is a creation of God over which He remains sovereign. All time belongs to Him. He has graciously given six days to us in which to pursue our own pleasures and responsibilities, requiring only one that is exclusively devoted to Him. Isn’t it interesting that His people object to even one full day?

Actually, what's interesting is that your last sentence seems to be commenting on a phantom post.