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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 3:37:48 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
well one in particular that i wondered about but noone responded to was where jesus was tempted by the devil. Im sure we would all agree that there is no point at all in "tempting" God and that it is not possible.
This being the case, there must be another purpose here as all scriptures serve some sort of learning purpose
See if these verses help:
HEB 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
HEB 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 4:24:32 PM
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tomhillbilly
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earthless and godsmusic- i went thru and read the scriptures you both posted. Good scriptures.
I just want to make clear that i have never and probably will never searched the bible specifically to argue for or against particular doctrines or beliefs.
In defense of jehovas witnesses not following trinity however, i will say that i recall many scriptures in which jesus clearly drew a distinction between himself snd "the Father". This is why i can understand their interpretation that jesus is Gods representative and not God himself.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 4:34:12 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
In defense of jehovas witnesses not following trinity however, i will say that i recall many scriptures in which jesus clearly drew a distinction between himself snd "the Father". This is why i can understand their interpretation that jesus is Gods representative and not God himself.
You've never bothered to even find out what trintiarian doctrine teaches, have you? The Son is not the Father. The Father did not become incarnate. However, the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there are not three gods, but only one God.
Before you start saying that certain verses conflict with Christian doctrine, find out what proper Christian doctrine is.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 5:14:15 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
In defense of jehovas witnesses not following trinity however, i will say that i recall many scriptures in which jesus clearly drew a distinction between himself snd "the Father". This is why i can understand their interpretation that jesus is Gods representative and not God himself.
Tom, there is nothing to defend for the jehova's witness'. Their doctrine is antichrist in nature denying the deity of Jesus Christ, therefore they are a cult.
Do you really wish to defend them?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 8:01:21 PM
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tomhillbilly
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figmentpez i never said that certain verses conflict with christian doctrine
godsmusic yes i wish to defend them as far as personal freedom and religious freedoms same as anyone. what i was doing more in this case was explaining why i understand their conflicting views on trinity.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 8:30:47 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
yes i wish to defend them as far as personal freedom and religious freedoms same as anyone.
Why is this even an issue? No one here has said they cannot believe what they want.
The simple fact is that they are not Christians and we are trying to inform you as to that for your own good. We're not saying they cannot exist or congregate, but if someone is interested in God, in Jesus, in Scripture.. then they are not the organization to go to for truth. God's truth is found in the Bible and they do not adhere to it.
My co-worker is a Witness and I love him and his wife. They are very nice and sincere people. But I pray that one day they will leave the Watchtower cult and accept the real and only Jesus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
what i was doing more in this case was explaining why i understand their conflicting views on trinity.
Please let me know if you have any other doubts about Jesus, questions, etc..
Iron sharpens iron.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 7:11:44 AM
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tomhillbilly
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Oh you folks dont have to worry about me associating with the jehovas witnesses. Or mormons or catholics for that matter. They wouldnt take me anyway, well the mormons might im not familiar with them. I definately dont have the money to be a catholic.
One thing i found and admired about jehovas witnesses is they seem to really follow a strict and righteous code of conduct for living. Who and what they associate with and what they take part in as far as entertainment and things like this. I guess this is right and any christian must make the same judgements about these things as well.
I guess i found this a little...troubling,let us say and even a little offensive like im part of a wicked world or even part of the attack on their particular group unless one goes along with absolutely everything they do.
What i mean here is that the true religion and worshippers of God or Jehovah as they say will be the most persecuted. Which leads me to another question....
How strong is this feeling among other particular denominations? that they are the one true acceptable group to God and everyone else is gonna burn in hell or be "blotted out". I familiar with christians blaming satan for just about anything and everything, i wonder how true this might be as well.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 2:32:11 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
figmentpez i never said that certain verses conflict with christian doctrine
You said, and I quote,
quote:
In defense of jehovas witnesses not following trinity however, i will say that i recall many scriptures in which jesus clearly drew a distinction between himself snd "the Father". This is why i can understand their interpretation that jesus is Gods representative and not God himself.
You defended their rejection of the trinity, saying that "many scriptures" led you to understand their rejection of Jesus Christ as God incarnate. If those "many scriptures" do not conflict with your understanding of trinitarian doctrine, then why would those scriptures lead you to understand JW heresy instead?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 2:36:57 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
How strong is this feeling among other particular denominations? that they are the one true acceptable group to God and everyone else is gonna burn in hell or be "blotted out". I familiar with christians blaming satan for just about anything and everything, i wonder how true this might be as well.
Let me be clear. Jehovah's Witnesses are not just another Christian denomination. Since they deny that Jesus Christ is God, they are not Christian at all.
It is absolutely essential Christian doctrine that to be saved one must believe that Jesus Christ is who He claimed to be:
John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
Jesus Christ declared it Himself, and there is no other Christian belief. Salvation comes through the real Jesus Christ, alone, and not through any anti-christs. It is not about groups of men, it is about our God who took on flesh to be the perfect and only sacrifice for sin.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 3:29:31 PM
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tomhillbilly
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figment i made clear that i checked all the verses people posted in support of the trinity. I understand and appreciate trinity followers passion for supporting the trinity.
All i have done here is say that i can also understand why some groups like te witnesses do not.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 4:04:58 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
figment i made clear that i checked all the verses people posted in support of the trinity. I understand and appreciate trinity followers passion for supporting the trinity.
All i have done here is say that i can also understand why some groups like te witnesses do not.
Reading the verses that have been posted in this thread is far far different thing than actually considering the whole of trinitarian doctrine. What has been said here is just a sliver of what has been said on these forums, and even that is just a drop in the bucket when it comes to true scholarship.
Unless "ignorance" is the reason you believe that some groups reject trinitarian doctrine, then you really need to study more of what scripture teaches. What JWs teach does not line up with the whole of scripture. Taking verses out of context is not an acceptable way to form doctrine, and it should not be defended.
Quite frankly, if you are posting in defense of JW belief, then you do not understand the passion that Christians have about proper teaching. Doctrine is not just a nice idea that some Christians take up as a hobby. It is vitally important to Christian life for us to study and understand who God has declared Himself to be. If we do not know who God is, then we cannot hope to follow Him with any degree of success.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 4:27:11 PM
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earthless
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Amen! Amen! Amen!
Praise Jesus for the few Bereans in our midst. God bless you Figment.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 4:44:32 PM
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tomhillbilly
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I respond figment and earthless that these verses people posted here isnt the first time i ever heard of the trinity. Ive been part of many discussions in the regular chat with folks that regard the trinity the same as people here. The pastor i study with is also a staunch trinity teacher.
Besides, even though Jehovas witnesses believe jesus is Gods representative and not God himself; how does this discount every other bible principle that they do follow?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 4:55:50 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Besides, even though Jehovas witnesses believe jesus is Gods representative and not God himself; how does this discount every other bible principle that they do follow?
I am being very sincere in asking this... because I cannot believe we're not understanding each other on such an important, yet very simple concept, do you now see how if you believe in a false (not real) Jesus - that then no matter how nice of a life you live, no matter how moral you are, no matter how much you study the Bible... you are dead in your sin, lost, eternally condemned?
Salvation is by grace alone, in Christ Jesus alone, through faith alone.
JW's believe in a false Jesus - they believe in things which are indeed JW but not Christian by any stretch of the word. The Watchtower organization is a cult by every sense of the word.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 5:01:16 PM
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lw9
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quote:
tomhillbilly: Besides, even though Jehovas witnesses believe jesus is Gods representative and not God himself; how does this discount every other bible principle that they do follow?
The rejection of Jesus Christ as God IS the rejection of God, period. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE. No one can reject God and follow God at the same time. It is impossible.
If a church or a person does not have faith in the true Christ, then all of their other 'beliefs' are a moot point. It does not matter how 'good' they are, how many other Biblical principles they follow, or how many people they feed. They are not Christian.
Christianity isn't something to be made up along the way to suit ourselves, changing the beliefs as we go. Christians are followers of Christ, and that means the one true Christ of the Holy Bible. We are warned over and over again about false christs and false teachers, and churches like Jehovah's Witnesses are a prime example of why the warnings exist.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 5:06:46 PM
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tomhillbilly
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i disagree earthless on both points. Jehovas witnesses believe in the same jesus of the bible same as everyone else. I dont hold to faith alone doctrine either because this would be cherry-picking scripture very badly. The laws, jesus' parables and story after story is giving examples that how we live does matter.
lets go back to the greatest commandments of the law. Remember jesus said that the second is likened unto the first. This also supports the trinity if we cross-referance with jesus saying "insomuch as you have done it to the least of these you have done it unto me".
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 5:17:31 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
i disagree earthless on both points. Jehovas witnesses believe in the same jesus of the bible same as everyone else.
This is so incorrect that it boggles the mind.
1) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus is Michael the archangel, the highest created being. This contradicts many Scriptures which clearly declare Jesus to be God (John 1:1,14; 8:58; 10:30).
2) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe salvation is obtained by a combination of faith, good works, and obedience. This contradicts countless Scriptures which declare salvation to be received by faith (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
3) Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the Trinity, believing Jesus to be a created being and the Holy Spirit to essentially be the power of God.
4) Jehovah’s Witnesses hold to a ransom theory of the atonement, in which Jesus' death paid only for what mankind lost when Adam sinned - namely, the right to perfect life on earth. Thus, they believe in a faith + works arrangement, where sin and death are freely atoned for by Christ, but physical perfection is attained through personal effort, coupled with faith in Christ.
The JW Jesus is something that was created by Charles T. Russell and over the years by the Watchtower organization.
It is a FALSE god and an anti-Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I dont hold to faith alone doctrine either because this would be cherry-picking scripture very badly.
Really? Scripture says otherwise:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
It is through grace alone, in Christ Jesus alone. Good works are a result of what God has done in a person (salvation). It is not a means to obtain or keep salvation.
Jesus Christ did all the work to save us from our sins.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 8:1a There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the gospel—the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13). Then, we must believe—fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).
A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12), and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
The laws, jesus' parables and story after story is giving examples that how we live does matter.
We are saved UNTO good works, empowered by the Holy Spirit. But it as Scripture shows above, we're not saved because of how good we are, our because of our "good" works. The Bible says that are good works are like a filthy rag unto God.
Jesus paid the price on the cross - there is nothing you can do to add to it. That is a slap in His face. It's akin to trying to bake cookies to help pay for what His precious shed blood covered and paid for.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
lets go back to the greatest commandments of the law. Remember jesus said that the second is likened unto the first. This also supports the trinity if we cross-referance with jesus saying "insomuch as you have done it to the least of these you have done it unto me".
What exactly are you trying to say with that?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 5:20:11 PM
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lw9
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quote:
I dont hold to faith alone doctrine either because this would be cherry-picking scripture very badly. The laws, jesus' parables and story after story is giving examples that how we live does matter.
Salvation: It can't be any clearer in scripture that it's through faith that we are saved, not works:
Jn 6:28 Then they asked Him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.”
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He have His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 5:24 “Truly, truly I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death in to life.”
Jn 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves His child as well… 3 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 John 4:13 We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession - to the praise of His glory.
John 6:40 “For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise Him up at the last day.”
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” – that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13 for “Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Works are the result of faith, not the cause of salvation. That's an important distinction to make. The following passages make it crystal clear that works do not save us in any way, shape, or form. We don't work to become saved or make ourselves righteous. Works are simply the fruit of the spirit, the result of being born again.
Eph 2:4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of His grace, expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Heb 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.
Tit 3:3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.
Rom 4:2-6 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to Him as righteousness.”
Note: If you're going to claim that salvation is based on something more than faith, then you will need to address the above scriptures and reconcile your beliefs through scripture for us.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 5:25:40 PM
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Qtman
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Jesus also said "I am the way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the Father except by me.
Therefore the JW's or anyone else that does not believe in Jesus, not jesus, they will never see God the Father. Since God the Father resides in Heaven, and they can't come to the Father, they won't make it to Heaven. THis is scriptual whether you believe it or not.
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STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 5:46:37 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
earthless and godsmusic- i went thru and read the scriptures you both posted. Good scriptures.
I just want to make clear that i have never and probably will never searched the bible specifically to argue for or against particular doctrines or beliefs.
In defense of Jehovah Witnesses not following trinity however, i will say that i recall many scriptures in which jesus clearly drew a distinction between himself and "the Father". This is why i can understand their interpretation that jesus is Gods representative and not God himself.
This is a very dangerous position to take. How are you gonna know if a doctrine/belief is dangerous unless you a checking scripture to see if it is correct? The Bible is very clear that we are to test the spirits because not every spirit is from God. When Paul came to Bareans they searched the scriptures to see if what he was saying is true.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 5:53:00 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
i disagree earthless on both points. Jehovas witnesses believe in the same jesus of the bible same as everyone else. I dont hold to faith alone doctrine either because this would be cherry-picking scripture very badly. The laws, jesus' parables and story after story is giving examples that how we live does matter.
lets go back to the greatest commandments of the law. Remember jesus said that the second is likened unto the first. This also supports the trinity if we cross-referance with jesus saying "insomuch as you have done it to the least of these you have done it unto me".
How could a Jesus that is a created being, is Michael the Archangel, was only a man in the incarnation, died, raised a spirit, became Michael again be the same Jesus that scripture actually teaches?
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 6:13:35 PM
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flyboy2610
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For an excellent treatise on JW theology, and it's departure from orthodox Christian belief, I suggest Dr. Walter Martin's "The Kingdom of the Cults."
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If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.
Red Green
If you're going to live like there's no hell..... you'd better be right.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 6:14:31 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6342
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: flyboy2610
For an excellent treatise on JW theology, and it's departure from orthodox Christian belief, I suggest Dr. Walter Martin's "The Kingdom of the Cults."
That is an excellent resource. A must read for all Christians.
Another good resource on JW's is Ron Rhodes 'Reasoning with....' series - he has one he did just on JW.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/16/2008 6:22:24 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2113
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I respond figment and earthless that these verses people posted here isnt the first time i ever heard of the trinity. Ive been part of many discussions in the regular chat with folks that regard the trinity the same as people here. The pastor i study with is also a staunch trinity teacher.
I'm concerned you're confusing just saying "trinity" with actually teaching all that word entails. If you actually had heard proper teaching about all that God declares in the Bible about His eternal nature, then you wouldn't say that JWs are preaching the same Jesus as we are.
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Besides, even though Jehovas witnesses believe jesus is Gods representative and not God himself; how does this discount every other bible principle that they do follow?
I'm sure there are many things that JWs teach that are comendable. I'm sure they talk about "love" and doing good works and all sorts of other things. However, just because you've got flour, eggs, butter, sugar and cocoa power, that doesn't mean you've actually baked a cake. Not only can you take those ingredients and make other things, you can also add other ingredients to make something that looks like a cake, but is deadly to eat.
That's what JWs have done. They've taken the words "jesus christ" and used them to create an idol. They've tossed in many things from the Bible, some distorted, but also brought in false teachings. The "jesus" they follow is a fabrication, an empty shell made up to resemble the real Jesus Christ. However, following the "jesus" of the JWs will not lead to eternal life.
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Jehovas witnesses believe in the same jesus of the bible same as everyone else.
The Jesus of the Bible says this:
Revelation 1:17-18
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Isaiah 41:4
"Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning?
'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last I am He.'"
Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
For those who aren't aware, in most English translations LORD (in all caps) is the translation of God's Hebrew name (the tetragrammaton, YHWH). Christians believe Jesus Christ when He says that He is the LORD and that there are no other gods. Jehovah's Witnesses deny that their "jesus christ" is LORD, and say that he is just one "god" among many.
In declaring a false christ (which the Bible warns against following, Matt 24:24, Mark 13:22, among others) JWs have rejected the real Son of God, and Jesus Christ says this about doing so:
John 15:23
He who hates me hates my Father as well.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
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lets go back to the greatest commandments of the law. Remember jesus said that the second is likened unto the first. This also supports the trinity if we cross-referance with jesus saying "insomuch as you have done it to the least of these you have done it unto me".
What on earth are you talking about? The least of these are not God. The second greatest commandment is "Love your neighbor as yourself." This has no direct relation to God's triune nature (save that God first loved us). Humans are not triune. Our love for our neighbors does not make us part of the trinity. I have no idea why you think this verse supports the trinity. Indeed, I think you have no idea what trinitarian doctrine actually is.
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I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/17/2008 9:38:39 AM
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tomhillbilly
Posts: 233
Joined: 3/18/2008
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wow thanx for all the responses. If nothing else i feel kinda poplar.heh
firgive me for not addressing everyone specifically here, im just one person
what i was trying to say about the witnesses worshipping the same jesus is that there is only the one jesus. This is one thing the whole world seems to acknowledge whether they want to or not, jesus is just to big. I just dont see the logic just because they differ in not following the trinity that this somehow changes anything. After all theyre acknowledging jesus compared to an atheist that says all religions are just stupid.
alright, th greatest commandments of the law. jesus said that the second is likened unto the first, we all know this. I want to make sure im right in my understanding of what this means. "How we treat our neighbor is likened unto doing the same thing to God"
I know,"what exactly is love in each particular situation? and who exactly is my neighbor?" could fill the forums.(wow does this hillbilly read minds?)
I would go so far as to say that the whole bible is related to these two greatest of Gods laws. Does this not say that how we live and treat each other matters a great deal? surely man doesnt live by faith alone
There are too many examples throughout the bible where peoples actions are specifically addressed as well as in a general sense. Faith goes a long way but its works that get it done.(possible siggy) again i want to make clear im not talking about "good deeds" per say just the over-all daily walk in faith, how we treat each other and stuff
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