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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 5:44:12 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
As for Solomon, who say this makes him an atheist? I should thing He would
be worshipping no gods at all! Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
wait a minute. So one person i know ( modern day Solomon) leaves church, studies Budhism, worhsips another religion, denounces One God by his actions - and you seem to justify such behaivor as Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
No wonder the church is in such terrible condition. No preaching truth, just poltical correct covering up for sins with nice wording, as you just did!!
Del, now you're caught in the FG trap of twisting people's words around.
How did we even get started on Solomon as an atheist?
Basically, here's the point I've been trying to make:
Someone walks into a church, hears the good news that Jesus died for their sins, raises their hand at the pastor's invitation, walks forward, professes to be a believer now, gets baptized, comes back to church for a little while, maybe even serves in nursery or as an usher, etc.
After a while, they decide not to be a Christian and they leave and try Mormonism, or Buddhism, or Islam, or nothing at all.
They eventually die, not professing to be a Christian at the time of death. FG's doctrine says their saved, the Bible says they're not.
They show no examples of faith in their life. No fruit of the Holy Spirit. Yet they believed at one time, even for a little while.
This is the problem with FG's doctrine and that it tramples the cross of Christ. It makes Christ's death meaningless. It makes me angry that someone would just trample on Christ that way, making it meaningless because they say that someone can be a wishy-washy Christian. God is not a wishy-washy God. He seeks full obedience.
We cannot provide full obedience, but the Holy Spirit does work through us to sanctify us.
The true Christian in the above scenario will come back to the Lord before he dies. Solomon did. If God had not chosen Solomon for salvation, then Solomon would have died an unbeliever. We are not in control of our death. God is. The mother of three children who dies in a car accident has been ordained for that moment. The father with cancer. The president-elect. All ordained by God. Our salvation: ordained by God. I know I am saved because of His promises and His goodness in my life.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 5:51:02 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
The question is whether or not God gave it in the first place.
Did the person truly believe from the heart? One's faith will persevere if they are saved.
Where do you find that one's faith will persevere? I read repeatedly of those who have shipwrecked their faith (1 Tim 1:9), have abandoned the faith (1 Tim 4:1), have denied the faith (1 Tim 5:8), and said to be worse than an unbeliever, whose sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ (1 Tim 5:11), have already turned away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15), have wandered from the faith (1 Tim 6:10, 21), have wandered away from the truth and have destroyed the faith of some (2 Tim 2:18.
A pretty grim picture, no doubt. Yet, if Paul was speaking of unbelievers here, why would he be concerned about them, since they are not saved anyway? Further, how can an unbeliever "wander", "depart", or "deny the faith and be called worse than an unbeliever"?
Or, young widows whose sensual desires have "overcome their dedication to Christ"?
None of these passages can be speaking of unbelievers. That is plain from the words themselves.
No unbeliever ever can be said to have "dedication to Christ".
No unbeliever can be called "worse than an unbeliever" (they already are one).
No unbeliever can be described as "already turned away to follow Satan", since they are born dead in sins, and under slavery to sin.
Note 2 Tim 2:19, "everyone who confesses the name of the Lord MUST turn away from wickedness". Do you note that Paul didn't write "will" but MUST?
iow, it's something believers must do; that is, turn away from wickedness.
Or 2 Tim 4:4, "they will turn their ears away from the Truth and turn aside to myths". How can that be referring to unbelievers? Their ears cannot "turn away from the Truth", since they've never focused on the truth in the first place.
If you disagree with me, please explain these verses.
So, if believers MUST turn from wickedness (as I have been saying this whole time, and you have not), then why do you believe that they don't have to? That they can live like hell and still have eternal life.
What happens to someone who "believes" but doesn't turn from wickedness? Are they saved?
You have pulled verses from one book of the Bible to suit your purpose, but I think Paul is warning Timothy here to be wary of goats and to protect his flock. Teach them truth so that this doesn't happen. Too much of your garbage is being taught in the churches today, which is why we do have so many pagans sitting in the pew or sitting on the membership roles, but not even coming to church. In fact, I would go so far as to say that there are too many pagans preaching in the pulpits of America.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 6:59:02 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Where do you find that one's faith will persevere? I read repeatedly of those who have shipwrecked their faith (1 Tim 1:9), have abandoned the faith (1 Tim 4:1), have denied the faith (1 Tim 5:8), and said to be worse than an unbeliever, whose sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ (1 Tim 5:11), have already turned away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15), have wandered from the faith (1 Tim 6:10, 21), have wandered away from the truth and have destroyed the faith of some (2 Tim 2:18.
Free - do you realize these are the same prooftexts used by
those who adhere to conditional security?
Where's Hebrews 6 and 10?
You have to look at other Scripture (I will be posting separately - look for them)
to decide whether these people are under discipline, where never saved, or
can, in fact, throw their faith away in spite of the Bible saying otherwise.
The eternal security doctrine you so love is deeply woven with perseverance doctrine.
I think the Calvinists have the "patent", if you will, on eternal security, don't they?
You bank on the fact that believers still sin to prove your theory, but this proves nothing.
I know my sheep and my sheep know me.
One simply question: Does an atheist know Christ? Not "did" he know, "does" he know?
The verse does not say "I know my sheep and my sheep knew me", does it?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 7:37:50 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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Roman 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the
likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown
away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 10:27-30
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give
them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them
out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that
he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
Genuine salvation is evidenced by a life of fruitfulness.
This is a basic presupposition based on the fact that new creatures do new
things and we cannot turn ourselves from a sheep back into a goat, nor would we want to.
Heb 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the
heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness
of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought
back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over
again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Heb 6:9
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better
things in your case—things that accompany salvation.
An atheist has fallen away - he has nothing now because
he never had anything then, Free. The only other interpretation is that these
verses are telling us our salvation is conditional and we can throw it away.
You will fall into a trap here, because the Scripture you need to support your theory
will blow up in your face – they are the same Scriptures the Arminians use to
support their “In and Out” salvation theology.
You think one can move “in and out” of believing and not move “in and out”
of salvation because you devalue and distort what true believing really is.
Heb 10: 39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but
of those who believe and are saved.
Who are these ones who “shrink back” and are destroyed, Free?
The ones in v. 26:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received
the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful
expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will
receive what he has promised.
To be confident we must endure.
We can’t simply lay hold of a promise and trust in the sincerity of a
past decision, Free – its killing Christianity now and will kill many “believers” then!
Our churches are already filled with victims of decisionist gospel deceivers –
wolves in sheeps clothing who preach a powerless, man-centered gospel -
who make their victim’s condemnation greater by trying to convince a
goat they are really a sheep.
Eternal security is true, but one cannot lose what they never had.
Do you really think you can place your confidence in a decision or a promise
you think you believe is true, as opposed to yourself as a new creation?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 9:27:36 AM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
HardKnox
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I see.... based on what you said i presume i cornered you, HK .
That'll be the day.
Sure. Its today.
So you dont have the answer to the question, except presenting the strawmen.
I REPEAT :
The problem with holding to " no atheist can be saved" and OSAS in the same time is Solomon and people like him. Solomon walked away from faith, was worshipping other gods, his heart turned away from One True God.
Yet - ATTENTION! - during that time he was saved. That didnt cause a break in his salvation. So here we have a BIBLICAL case of someone who , while being just as good as an atheist that was in the same time, saved.
Why is it so hard to admit you have no answer instead of finding some lame excuses and changing subject?
Rev. 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
No atheists in heaven. Argument over.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 10:44:43 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I agree with FG - seem like you are thinking we sustain out salvation by our own efforts.That is troubling
Why should that trouble folks who believe they obtained salvation by their own efforts?
So, you are claiming that I believe that I have "obtained salvation by my own efforts"? If so, you are totally wrong. I have never said that, nor implied that.
The problem is that for calvinists, who claim God controls everything, including all their thoughts, the idea that one has the ability and freedom to make their own mind up is baffling and confusing. Which explains why the calvinists haven't properly or accurately stated my pov yet.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 11:22:28 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
Verses, please?
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,
which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel
you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.
Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1Cor 15:1-2
So, rw, do you really think this verse is teaching that one must "hold firmly" to the gospel? Doesn't that sound just like human effort and works to you?
A couple of things: first, the conditional "if" must be recognized as either one of the 4 classes of condition. iow, a 1st class condition means basically "reality", or they ARE believing the gospel. Note the verse doesn't say "keep on holding firmly".
Second, the word for "vain" means "without purpose, or without success". Now, how can believing the gospel of Jesus Christ be without purpose or success?
quote:
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Phil 1:6
This speaks of one's salvation.
quote:
If an believer could throw away his faith, who is in control of his salvation here?
A believer can wander from the faith, deny the faith, etc, since Paul clearly said so, but God retains control of their salvation.
iow, no one can throw away they salvation.
quote:
If you want to claim the Doctrine of the Security of the Believer, you must be a believer!
Remember, it is God who saves, not our believing that does. Therefore, even if the faith fails down the road, once regenerated, always regenerated. That does not change. You would have to provide me with a verse that plainly teaches that before I can believe it.
quote:
Yes, you HAVE * BEEN * SAVED - I think you take it too literally, friend! Might I suggest you HAVE * BEEN * BORN also?
Plain language in Scripture is to be taken literally. Again, once born again, God doesn't un-born us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 11:29:51 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Do you all agree the 3 main facets of the Gospel are
1. Repent
2. Believe
3. Receive the Holy Spirit???
If so, why do you think its can all be temporary?
Who ever said it was "all" temporary? Once the Holy Spirit is received, that is absolutely permanent, if you believe the Bible and Eph 4:30.
quote:
Why to you think the Holy Spirit remains only if a man gives him permission?
See Eph 4:30.
quote:
Once Saved Always Saved is a damnable thing in the hands of a false teacher, agree?
Actually, even unbelievers who state the gospel correctly can be instrumental in one becoming saved.
quote:
BTW, I gave this as a Wed night study tonight.
NOBODY got it. Answers included
1. get baptized
2. profess Jesus
3. give a testimony
and other such things.
Pitiful. Proof that current and past pastors have failed miserably in teaching the "deeper things of God", per 1 Cor 2.
quote:
At 52 years of age, I am still trying to figure out exactly how I got saved.
If you can't answer that one, you really do have a problem. You believed that the the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for you and gives you eternal life.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 11:54:00 AM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
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quote:
The problem is that for calvinists, who claim God controls everything, including all their thoughts, the idea that one has the ability and freedom to make their own mind up is baffling and confusing. Which explains why the calvinists haven't properly or accurately stated my pov yet.
I certainly don't buy that your clear on it, FG. You have completely failed to defend your view of human freedom biblically, only offering false inferences from verses taken completely out of context and doctored up with false linguistics. So, you hide behind the claim that we don't understand you. My question is, if we don't understand you, why do you continue to argue from what we say? We must be hitting your pov for you to go on. I admit that when I first engaged with you, I was throwing out depth charges trying to find your sub. But the recent digression to "atheists can go to heaven" is pretty good evidence that your boat is sunk. Nothing on the surface left but debris.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:05:11 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1063
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
rwe2156,
quote:
I think you should reconsider.
We proclaim to gospel to the lost simply to see who's already saved, KJ?
So how many times, how many ways, how many prayers before we can see who is been chosen for salvation?
There is a simple way for us to figure this out with a real and stable conclusion.
1. God has clearly seen the future which would include every soul that ends up in heaven and hell. Agreed?
2. If God knows that in the future there will be ten thousand people in hell do you think for one moment you or myself will persuade one of those ten thousand people to be anywhere other than where God sees them?
quote:
There is no reality to this view and this is certainly not what I see from Calvinist preachers.
While I agree our purpose is not to extract a decision from a man, so to, we should not presume he will never believe, nor can we assume those who come to be saved are ever elect, can we?
On what basis do we "dust off our shoes" and move on brother?
The elect man might simply be refusing and we need to keep hammering away?
Where's irresistible grace in all this? Is it irresistible only when God chooses to
make is so - this "effectual" call you all claim is only "effectual" because the
man relented and repented? This cannot be if God is in control from A to Z.
If Jesus was so interested in convincing and saving all people do you think He would have said these sorts of things;
Luke 9;
5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them.
Matt 10;
5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
11"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Mark 6;
10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them." 12They went out and preached that people should repent.
quote:
But it all makes perfect sense if the man is able to repent. Everything Paul says makes sense if he is preaching to a man with a choice.
There is a reason to "preach as a dying man to dying men" and the answer is not simply to deliver the message to the ears of the elect!
Why would the elect need convincing if they have no choice, KJ?
People are given choices. To repent or not to repent. Those are indeed choices.
People are told to come to Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.
They should choose to do that all on their own but guess what......they just dont.
62 Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again?
63 The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
65 Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
Its just sort of too bad no one naturally chooses to repent;
Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin.
“No one is righteous—not even one.
No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God.
All have turned away; all have become useless.
No one does good, not a single one.”
What is really important to understand is that even if a person has done a million good things it does not make a person good. One sin no matter how trivial when compared to other sins is still evil. Sin which is evil comes from that which is evil. The human heart is evil. It is wasted. It is junk. It is garbage and it does not matter how good people think the human heart is even if it has done many so called good things.
People are not the standard by which things are measured. God is the standard and everybody falls waaaaaay short.
Gently instruct those who oppose the truth.
Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth.
Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap.
For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.
I do not agree with the "Cornelius theology".
Saving people is what God does best........not me.
Take care,
KJB
Well with this explanation of that post. Churchs can now start saving all kinds of money, for then there is no need to got out and evangelise the population of the earth. But wait there is one problem to that. What did Jesus say before he went up into the white clouds, to his followers?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:19:58 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1063
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
"Calvinism/Arminianism" is an interesting thread, but not accurately named IMO. I would prefer "True gospel/counterfeit gospel". One recognizes that God is on the throne, the other puts man on the throne. It is not surprising that the majority cannot understand Grace because the natural man cannot understand the things of God and they are hidden from him. Satans greatest deception isn't that he doesn't exist or the countless cults the world has ever known, it is a theology that so closely resembles the original that only a seemingly minor difference separates the two; who's will?.
For where God built a church, there the Devil would also build a chapel.
Martin Luther
And I thought that I was putting God on the throne in my life.
When you make a great blanket statement as that. Is that you better have all of your ducks in a row. Which means you will have no-faults or your perfect in your mind.
I know that I am not perfect in my walk with God. Yet (not bragging) sometimes I will humble myself and ask God to help me change my mind and to forgive me of my sins.
Here is what I find with a lot of calvins and it is also written in the stories of Israel in the bible. Is that once someone gets it into their mind that they are chosen. Then they become a person who could equal the Pharisees, or even become worse then the Pharisees.
Just to have a person elevate themselves over another person. Shows according to scriptures that isn't what God had in mind with his called.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:25:34 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
rwe, don't weasel out, friend. Answer about Solomon.
Alright, dear - I sure hope I get this right! 
"his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God,
as the heart of David his father had been." 1Kings 11:14b
"For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians
and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites."
In v. 6 we read "Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD,
and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
v. 9"Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart
was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel."
There is not evidence from 1Kings 11 that Solomon "once believed".
THAT, I think is very clear from the passage.
Solomon as "not wholly devoted" and "did not follow the Lord" and you
think that supports your "saved atheist" apostacy?
I don't see how you can conclude Solomon was an atheist. He was in need of restoration!
He was not unlike the example I gave you of the Christian who worships
his house, his Chevy truck, his bassboat or his golf clubs.
You see him painting his house, mowing his yard, shining his truck, fishing or
golfing between 11 and 12 Sunday.......and you might wonder.....but he has
lost nothing, Del - on this I know we agree.
But if I go to him as admonishing him and he curses God and tell me to go to hell
with my Christianity....I am to assume he is my brother in Christ?
What brand of faith are you speaking of, here?
Oprah might want to interview you if there really is a way for anyone to be saved!
Now if, (God forbid!) for some reason he undergoes persecution (which in the US
includes the occasional risque billboard or MacDonalds supporting gays) and he
abandons his "faith" and pays homage to Caesar - he never had what he professed!
Its just that plain to me.
Many, many Scriptures support theology of true faith vs. deception.
Your evidence for Solomon being an atheist is not only weak, but disproven
by a simple reading of the Scritpures themselves.
True persecution will separate the talkers from the believers, this I am sure of.
I'll answer the rest of your post later.
God Bless.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:32:49 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
To the point, please- If Solomon would have died while worshipping other gods he would have been lost?
That is not to the point. Nobody on this side argues that a person cannot backslide. But every backslider came back to the Lord before his died.
What you miss is that there is no evidence that Solomon did. None.
quote:
The Holy Spirit does not reveal to us through rationalistic hypotheses, but through plain truth. What is stated is stated.
Absolutely true. Let's look at 1 Kings 11, a summary of the life of Solomon.
v.4 says "for it came about when Solomon was old (that refers to the end of one's life) his wives turned his heart AWAY after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been."
v.9-13 tells us that because of that, the Lord was angry with Solomon, and God tore away his kingdom from him, but not during his lifetime, for the sake of David.
The rest of the chapter summarizes his life. There is no evidence or even hint that he repented after he was old. The fact remains that God tore away his kingdom from him specifically because "he did not observe what the Lord had commanded".
quote:
Don't get the idea God puts a lot of stock in our reasoning ability, he talks down to us like children. This business about Solomon is grasping at straws, he is not evidence for your case because he was drawn back in the end as was David. God preserves his own, even from themselves.
Please read all of 1 Kings 11 and then get back to me, ok?
quote:
quote:
I agree with FG - seem like you are thinking we sustain out salvation by our own efforts.That is troubling
This is not worth answering. I think we've made the point very clearly throughout these discussions that all ability comes from God.
My pov has always been that God gave everyone the "ability" to think for themselves, and the capacity to believe or reject whatever they want.
quote:
We accuse FW of of salvation by our own efforts, you all continuously argue in favor of effort of some sort, and now this turn around? Agree with FG. How can you find a point of agreement on his shifting grounds.
Would you care to specifically explain how I am on "shifting grounds".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:32:57 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
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quote:
Oprah might want to interview you if there really is a way for anyone to be saved!
Better yet, Robert Schuller. That great "Calvinist" (another of Ode's false assertions) would totally agree with the FG, Ode view of pluralistic salvation.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:39:41 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
FG,
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What is your point? When the gift of eternal life is given, it is not taken back.
It is your presumption that God is bound and man is not. You tie God down with having to come through on his end of the bargain while the man gets to walk at will.
I presume nothing, HK. However, do you want to argue that God is NOT bound by His own Word? I've not "tied God down". That is just a silly claim. I am claiming His own Word. So, let's argue about whether God is bound by His own Word.
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God is not an idiot who strikes bad bargains with infidels. What an insult to his omniscience. Paul has a good phrase for this kind of thinking: me genoita! God forbid it! This is pure libertinism.a
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If I've given any "faulty inferences", why don't you point them out instead of merely claiming such?
That is all I’ve been doing since I came onto this thread.
This is just another of your playing dodgeball, but acting as though he has materially participated in this thread.
You have yet to give his opinion as to whom John was referring in 1 John 2:2 by "whole world". He claimed he did, but when I asked for the post #, he ignored the request.
In order to avoid being "pinned down", you merely resort to ignoring the post or question, and then claiming "that's all I've been doing since I came onto this thread".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:40:43 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1063
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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He did not die an atheist. Duh. Think we can get back to a real argument now?
This is not what you read in the scriptures. Makes no references to that fact Solomon changed his mind.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:44:19 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Solomon walked away from faith, was worshipping other gods, his heart turned away from One True God.
So believers fall in and out of salvation during their life?
No, believers fall in and out of their faith during their life.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:45:59 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2483
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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I don't see how you can conclude Solomon was an atheist. He was in need of restoration!
So let’s take a modern person. If "John Smith" lives a life devoted to God, is a known and respected Christian who shows a great Love and Fruit of Holy Spirit then later in life starts worshipping Indian gods let’s say, he is saved or not?
Why do you saying that Solomon was saved as while being a worshipper of other gods and
"John Smith"in my example isn’t ? Whats with the double standard?
And why is worshipping other gods is so much better than being an atheist? Sort of like if you start cheating on your wife with other women is better than if you just leave her and go live on your own?
If anything, then Solomon was WORSE than an atheist.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:47:13 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2483
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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 ..RWE, how sad… your position of justifying sin by covering it with pretty words and nice Doctor Phil- like, politically correct speech is so reflective of the position that modern church holds..
I wish I could be more successful in explaining to you how bad and detrimental your view of seeing sin lightly is.....
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:50:49 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
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FG,
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What you miss is that there is no evidence that Solomon did. None.
Read Eccles. 2, then get back to me, ok?
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My pov has always been that God gave everyone the "ability" to think for themselves, and the capacity to believe or reject whatever they want.
Shifting ground.
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Would you care to specifically explain how I am on "shifting grounds".
See above.
You know, though. Even if it could be proven that Solomon did not repent (and it can’t) Solomon is not an apples to apples evidence of an atheist. It is easy to prove that Solomon was not an atheist, never was. Atheists in heaven? Abominable belief. Rev. 21:8 “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:52:22 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2483
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
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He did not die an atheist. Duh. Think we can get back to a real argument now?
This is not what you read in the scriptures. Makes no references to that fact Solomon changed his mind.
Good point, mcleod!!
THere is a very small amount of scholars who even think that Eccl. was written right before Sol's death, and that he somewhat turned away from being a foreign gods worshipper.
Definitely no serious Tanach scholars or rabbinum believe that
It is made up by those who like the idea of making historical figures have a pretty image :)
I was though politely giving the C camp the benefit of the doubt,and agreeing with that but it is not technically supported by Scripture. I myself believe Solomon died in that sin actually...
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:54:43 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
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ORIGINAL: Odeliya
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As for Solomon, who say this makes him an atheist? I should thing He would be worshipping no gods at all! Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
wait a minute. So one person i know ( modern day Solomon) leaves church, studies Budhism, worhsips another religion, denounces One God by his actions - and you seem to justify such behaivor as Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
No wonder the church is in such terrible condition. No preaching truth, just poltical correct covering up for sins with nice wording, as you just did!!
Del, now you're caught in the FG trap of twisting people's words around.
How did we even get started on Solomon as an atheist?
Basically, here's the point I've been trying to make:
Someone walks into a church, hears the good news that Jesus died for their sins, raises their hand at the pastor's invitation, walks forward, professes to be a believer now, gets baptized, comes back to church for a little while, maybe even serves in nursery or as an usher, etc.
After a while, they decide not to be a Christian and they leave and try Mormonism, or Buddhism, or Islam, or nothing at all.
They eventually die, not professing to be a Christian at the time of death. FG's doctrine says their saved, the Bible says they're not.
Hold on, TC. You just accused me of "twisting people's words around", and here you are, twisting mine. Why do you have permission to do so? I have always maintained that the issue is NOT what was professed (note your own example above), but whether they actually believed the gospel. Why can't you see the difference?
The issue has NEVER been about what people "profess", but about what people actually believe. Please note this for future reference. And quit twisting my words, please.
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This is the problem with FG's doctrine and that it tramples the cross of Christ. It makes Christ's death meaningless.
What a pitiful understanding you express of my pov. Did Christ die for every sin you would ever commit or not? Of course He did. So, please explain how one's yet future sins could or would effect their salvation? You are not making any sense. We are saved by God when we believe. Period. Even if one changes their mind later, so what, as far as their salvation is concerned? Now, as far as their spiritual growth is concerned, it's a huge problem. They aren't growing, obviously.
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It makes me angry that someone would just trample on Christ that way, making it meaningless because they say that someone can be a wishy-washy Christian. God is not a wishy-washy God. He seeks full obedience.
I don't get angry, even when you calvinists continually twist my pov into stupidity. Of course God commands full obedience, not just "seeks" as you weakly put it. I've always agreed to that. You just still have no clue as to my pov.
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We cannot provide full obedience, but the Holy Spirit does work through us to sanctify us.
To which I have always agreed.
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The true Christian in the above scenario will come back to the Lord before he dies. Solomon did. If God had not chosen Solomon for salvation, then Solomon would have died an unbeliever.
I suggest you read 1 Kings 11, the whole chapter, which is a summary of Solomon's life. Then get back to me as to when he "came back", if you can.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:58:59 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2483
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Basically, here's the point I've been trying to make:
Someone walks into a church, hears the good news that Jesus died for their sins, raises their hand at the pastor's invitation, walks forward, professes to be a believer now, gets baptized, comes back to church for a little while, maybe even serves in nursery or as an usher, etc.
After a while, they decide not to be a Christian and they leave and try Mormonism, or Buddhism, or Islam, or nothing at all.
They eventually die, not professing to be a Christian at the time of death. FG's doctrine says their saved, the Bible says they're not.
They show no examples of faith in their life. No fruit of the Holy Spirit. Yet they believed at one time, even for a little while.
That shows me how you dont understand FG doctrine.
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