RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/17/2008 8:07:27 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Qtman
Theo-minor I have no emotional ties to the debate either. I have never lost a baby.
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One doesn't have to have lost a child to have this be an emotional topic...
Maybe not but personal experiences is usually where emotions come from.
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That was a good well written post and I agree. However, you should now brace yourself for it to be reposted one line at a time and picked apart. Just a warning.
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Strange to warn someone that what the posted will be responded to and on a forum no less... Like warning someone that water will be wet at the drinking fountain...
Actually you need to read my post. I did not warn him it would be responded to. I warned him it would be picked apart. And it was
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Like I said before you have obviously come to this belief through study of the word.
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Since there is no clear scripture on the matter and the plan of salvation for babies conflicts with the common man must choose or else plan found and supported by yourself the conclusion that all babies are saved is one mostly rooted in what people want not what they find...
THis statement is also false. Any one that has sinned will have to choose to turn from their sin and repent and seek forgiveness.
As has been pointed out many times Babies have no sin to turn from.
You consistently pick everone post apart with a vague argument about the battle of Jerico or the Flood or Esau and Jacob when they have in fact nothing whatsoever to do with where babies spend eternity. You like everyone on here, including me, have offered no definitive evidence on the subject one way or the other. The reason we, including you, haven't is because it is not there. It is simply a matter of studying the Bible in its totality and reaching a belief. I havve done this as have others. I have to assume you have and reach a different conclusion. But that does not prove anyone is right or wrong. It is beliefs arrived at through study.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/17/2008 8:34:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5953
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Maybe not but personal experiences is usually where emotions come from.
Normally yes, but this topic bring out emotions... I can give an examples if you like. People have been barred from the topic who couldn't post without getting upset because people didn't agree with them.
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Actually you need to read my post. I did not warn him it would be responded to. I warned him it would be picked apart. And it was
Picked apart is your opinion of my responding... It's just a matter of style... You might like to respond with larges paragraphs at the bottom some respond line by line... To each his own, but to infer one is bad over the other is unfounded.
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THis statement is also false.
Can't be false since all you have is your opinion. At best all you can do is disagree.
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Any one that has sinned will have to choose to turn from their sin and repent and seek forgiveness.
Surely if God sees fit to show them mercy...
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As has been pointed out many times Babies have no sin to turn from.
Yes, that opinion has been stated...
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You consistently pick everone post apart with a vague argument about the battle of Jerico or the Flood or Esau and Jacob when they have in fact nothing whatsoever to do with where babies spend eternity.
Since you have never responded to the issue of babies being taken out in the flood and Jericho your claim they have nothing whatsoever to do with where babies spend eternity doesn't carry any weight.
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You like everyone on here, including me, have offered no definitive evidence on the subject one way or the other.
That is why I say it's in God's hand and not that all babies are saved...
I am not the one saying all saved or all are not...
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The reason we, including you, haven't is because it is not there. It is simply a matter of studying the Bible in its totality and reaching a belief.
All the study in the world will not change the fact there is no verse that says they are saved and the common response is to make up a version of salvation for babies that conflicts with the common you must choose or else plan of salvation.
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I havve done this as have others. I have to assume you have and reach a different conclusion. But that does not prove anyone is right or wrong. It is beliefs arrived at through study.
The fact that you concede there is no definitive evidence on the subject one way or the other and for you to say they are all in heaven is saying your right in spite of the fact you say there is no definitive evidence. Which tells me that it's your desire for it to be that way. When in fact the best answer is that it's in God's hands...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/17/2008 8:40:45 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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Their mothers being slain the alleged innocent babies wouldn't grow up in their old ways...
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How could sinless innocent babies by simply being born of whomever bring about old ways of the former inhabitants if the there is no former inhabitants to show them the old ways?
Deuteronomy 20:13-18 - And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee. Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: but thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee: that they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the Lord your God.
Now, I do believe I said, "The children and women who were slain in the land the Israelites were going in to possess were slain to eradicate an idolatrous people. God did not say the babies or children were guilty, or that they had sinned. He just said to slay them. God didn't want the children of Israel infected with their ways, and as history has shown, disobeying God in his instructions throughout the whole conquering of the promised land ultimately led to the many sins of Israel with strange gods."
And I also said, "If I'm not mistaken, the Bible says something very similar to this understanding of the events, just in different words."
According to Deuteronomy 20:13-18, it would appear that I am not, in fact, mistaken. Even more to the point, Jericho was part of the land of Canaan.
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Not really since God made a point of picking Jacob and Christ was heading to cross long before this took place... Such speculation defies the fact God had a plan and He did and is bringing it to past...
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Not when you consider that God's choice(judgment) wasn't based on anything they did...Good or bad...
You both miss the point and prove my point at the same time.
God had a plan. We are both agreed on that. What you are missing in what I said is that God chose Jacob because of that plan, not because of any sins in the womb. Choosing Esau for the blessing might have resulted in a line of worshippers that obeyed, or had compassion on a man who was clearly from God. It is obvious that Jacob wasn't the most upright individual. What kind of man steals his brother's blessing with subterfuge and tricks him out of his birth right with a bowl of "that red stuff"?
But that aside, as you said yourself, "God's choice wasn't based on anything they did ... Good or bad." In which case, my point is validated. I said, "As for Esau ... That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not children go to heaven, or are guiltless in their innocence and lack of understanding." And it doesn't. Jacob and Esau are relevant to a number of discussions. This isn't one of them.
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Not when you consider that their "righteous" isn't theirs, but God's...
Nothing says man is born alive in the Spirit... One is either in the flesh or the Spirit...
There is nothing to suggest that man is born alive in the Spirit from the womb, dies upon first sin and and later is born (again) of the Spirit...
The righteousness of Christ is necessary due to our unrighteousness. Without his righteousness, we would have none at all, because we can never justify ourselves in the eyes of God with sin on our souls.
But righteousness means "right-doing." A person who is righteous is a person who "does the right thing." Babies don't do anything at all, right or wrong, but cry when they're hungry, dirty their diapers when they have to potty, sleep when they're tired, and look at everything with wonder when all is well.
So all said and done, righteousness has no relevance to babies whatsoever. If they had to give an account of themselves to God, I'm pretty sure the list of incidents in the book would be, "messed his diaper three times on the 21st, cried really loud most of the night so his mother couldn't sleep, and ate four times. On the 22nd ..."
As for that last sentence of yours ... I think you need to reread Romans 7 and 8. Paul very specifically says, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died (7:9). [...] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you (8:11)."
So then Paul was alive, and then by sin he died, and through the Spirit of him that raised Christ from the dead, his mortal body was quickened (brought back to life). So yes, there is something "to suggest that man is born alive in the Spirit from the womb, dies upon first sin and and later is born (again) of the Spirit..."
Paul didn't die physically, and his physical body wasn't brought back to life in an actual sense. His statements are all speaking of spiritual matters. His mortal body was alive with the Spirit of God, and through sin it died (though it was still physically alive and animated), but through the Spirit of God, it was brought to life again (though it wasn't actually dead in a physical sense).
This is all clearly spiritual.
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Jesus never said that...
Sure did. Please read posts 524 and 529. I don't care to rehash my old posts.
Next Post -
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Like yourself?
Nope. I'm afraid that log isn't in my eye. I've changed my point of view in the past after carefully reading and considering someone's argument. We should be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to wrath. I try and evaluate what someone says before I dismiss it, unless it is clearly incorrect (like someone saying Christ didn't rise from the grave, for example, which we would all agree is just wrong).
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More points that can be directed right back to yourself... Of course that is the problem with making such comments, they can be turn against yourself...
Again, I'm afraid that just isn't the case. What I said is as follows:
"Ironically, I made that post for those who are reading this thread, not for him."
No response that I'm aware of, and it's nothing that can be turned on anyone.
"He's likely to do exactly as you say ..."
... and you did.
"... make a bunch of invalid points that either ignore the good points I made or use things irrelevant or incontextual to the issues presented in order to ultimately hold being right in higher esteem than being correct."
None of your points addressed your argument. You just argued that my points were wrong without offering a counterpoint. Hence, they were invalid. They proved nothing at all, and they did nothing to demonstrate your point of view.
Point of fact, several of the things you said were blatantly incorrect, as scripture demonstrates (as shown in this post).
"People just don't want to change, and they never want to be wrong."
I already addressed this. I don't care if I'm wrong. I can, and do, change my point of view when scripture shows me otherwise.
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Actually I would tell them it's in God's hand, since that is a far more honest answer than to say they are in heaven...
That is, indeed, what you initially posted. However, you prefaced it with quite a lot of negativity that basically said (in a nutshell) we should be skeptical of any doctrine that views infants as automatically saved. All such doctrines are derived from an emotional response due to our own perception of children.
To make a point here, I answered your question about Jericho, so you can no longer say, "Nor has anyone explained the implications of the flood and acts like what took place in Jericho regarding babies and justice."
I would be willing to bet that the answer to the flood is also similarly answerable.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/17/2008 8:45:43 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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The fact that you concede there is no definitive evidence on the subject one way or the other and for you to say they are all in heaven is saying your right in spite of the fact you say there is no definitive evidence. Which tells me that it's your desire for it to be that way. When in fact the best answer is that it's in God's hands...
Jesus said they are in heaven constantly beholding the face of his Father. Qtman is saying that the Bible doesn't say they are "saved," but it does say they are in heaven, which it does. View it how you will, but the fact of the matter is, "little ones" are in heaven. Whether or not they are "saved" is a non issue. Saved or not, they are in heaven.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/17/2008 9:01:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5953
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Now, I do believe I said, "The children and women who were slain in the land the Israelites were going in to possess were slain to eradicate an idolatrous people. God did not say the babies or children were guilty, or that they had sinned. He just said to slay them. God didn't want the children of Israel infected with their ways, and as history has shown, disobeying God in his instructions throughout the whole conquering of the promised land ultimately led to the many sins of Israel with strange gods."
And I also said, "If I'm not mistaken, the Bible says something very similar to this understanding of the events, just in different words."
How are innocent babies going to infect people?
God is just, He doesn't simply say, Slay them...
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God had a plan. We are both agreed on that. What you are missing in what I said is that God chose Jacob because of that plan, not because of any sins in the womb.
I made is clear God's choice had nothing to do with them doing good or bad... Which goes to my point... It about God's choice... Not doing good or bad...
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Choosing Esau for the blessing might have resulted in a line of worshippers that obeyed, or had compassion on a man who was clearly from God.
I believe it obvious that wasn't God's plan...
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It is obvious that Jacob wasn't the most upright individual. What kind of man steals his brother's blessing with subterfuge and tricks him out of his birth right with a bowl of "that red stuff"?
The fact Jacob wasn't any better than Esau drives home the point that it was about God choice, not the actions of the brothers.
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But that aside, as you said yourself, "God's choice wasn't based on anything they did ... Good or bad." In which case, my point is validated. I said, "As for Esau ... That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not children go to heaven, or are guiltless in their innocence and lack of understanding." And it doesn't.
I beg to differ...
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Jacob and Esau are relevant to a number of discussions. This isn't one of them.
Your opinion...
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The righteousness of Christ is necessary due to our unrighteousness. Without his righteousness, we would have none at all, because we can never justify ourselves in the eyes of God with sin on our souls.
Thanks for making my pint...
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So then Paul was alive, and then by sin he died, and through the Spirit of him that raised Christ from the dead, his mortal body was quickened (brought back to life). So yes, there is something "to suggest that man is born alive in the Spirit from the womb, dies upon first sin and and later is born (again) of the Spirit..."
Paul perception of being alive suggests that man is born of the Spirit from the womb? Paul's actions prior to his actual spiritual awaking tell me you are wrong.
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Sure did.
Please read posts 524 and 529. I don't care to rehash my old posts.
When you produce scripture I'll take notice...
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Nope. I'm afraid that log isn't in my eye. I've changed my point of view in the past after carefully reading and considering someone's argument.
So have I....Case closed...
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"He's likely to do exactly as you say ..."
... and you did.
Respond? Wow... What a revelation... A post regardless to be said not to me was nonetheless a response to my post and I responded...
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Point of fact, several of the things you said were blatantly incorrect, as scripture demonstrates (as shown in this post).
All your opinion...
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"People just don't want to change, and they never want to be wrong."
I already addressed this. I don't care if I'm wrong. I can, and do, change my point of view when scripture shows me otherwise.
So do I... Case closed...
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That is, indeed, what you initially posted. However, you prefaced it with quite a lot of negativity that basically said (in a nutshell) we should be skeptical of any doctrine that views infants as automatically saved. All such doctrines are derived from an emotional response due to our own perception of children.
Given what is posted that is my opinion. And I stand by the fact it's the most honest answer... Salvation is in God's hand regardless of age...
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To make a point here, I answered your question about Jericho, so you can no longer say, "Nor has anyone explained the implications of the flood and acts like what took place in Jericho regarding babies and justice."
I would be willing to bet that the answer to the flood is also similarly answerable.
Yes, you responded... I don't believe your response dealt with the fact that babies were treated like everyone else...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 10/17/2008 9:11:58 PM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/17/2008 9:07:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5953
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Jesus said they are in heaven constantly beholding the face of his Father.
Every child?
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Qtman is saying that the Bible doesn't say they are "saved," but it does say they are in heaven, which it does.
No, it doesn't....
This is what Qtman said,
The Bible does not say Babies go to heaven or Babies don't go to heaven. This is one of those questions we have to study the word and come to our own conclusions. My beliefs are based on years of study.
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View it how you will, but the fact of the matter is, "little ones" are in heaven. Whether or not they are "saved" is a non issue. Saved or not, they are in heaven.
Without a doubt little children are in heaven... That doesn't mean all them are...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/17/2008 9:25:19 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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John I am going to respond to one more post from you. You keep saying all the study will not put something in the Bible. On the face ot that statement it is true. However, when something is not specifically addressed s through study may reveal something concerning the subject even though it is not actually written. You are smarter than that.
Please understand I am not making apersonal attack on you with the folowing. I am not calling you names either. I am making up an example to prove my point and that is all.
I have searched all 66 books of the Bible and nowhere do I find the words" Do not call Soveriegnis He the south side of a north bound horse. I tried to find it but it is just not there. So according to your logic it would be o.k. for me to do that.
However, after studying several other scriptures I was able to determine I probably should not do that and if I did I should repent and seek forgiveness for it.
So you see a deep open minded and opened heart study of the word can reveal something that is not specificall written.
There are far to many people who read the Bible blindly. They can't see The Word for looking at the words.
I'll tell the gang hi for you.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/17/2008 11:15:23 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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How are innocent babies going to infect people?
Don't know, don't care. It was God's rationale, not mine. Please review Deuteronomy 20:13-18. I typed it out for you in my post if you don't care to look it up.
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God is just, He doesn't simply say, Slay them...
He is just ... but he does and did say to slay them, or more specifically, "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: but thou shalt utterly destroy them."
Did you even read my post and the associated scriptures? Or did you simply take each line and try to answer to each blindly just to be disagreeable? Again, please review Deuteronomy 20:13-18.
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I made is clear God's choice had nothing to do with them doing good or bad... Which goes to my point... It about God's choice... Not doing good or bad...
And I made it clear that this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not children are saved, in heaven, or anything else. You are making a pointless argument.
You can beg to differ with me as to whether or not it is relevant to this discussion, but it still doesn't pertain. Yes, who gets saved is entirely God's choice. I get that. But Jacob and Esau is about God's plan, not about whether unborn infants or babies sin or go to heaven. Call it my opinion if it pleases you, but it is what it is. You keep saying yourself that God's choice had nothing to do with anything they did, good or bad. I agree. Nothing they did or did not do had anything to do with anything, because the story has nothing to do with that issue whatsoever.
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Thanks for making my pint...
Concerning the righteousness of Christ, I didn't make your point. I made my point. Don't take what I say out of context during your dissections.
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Paul perception of being alive suggests that man is born of the Spirit from the womb? Paul's actions prior to his actual spiritual awaking tell me you are wrong.
And Paul's actual teachings in black and white print tell me you are.
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When you produce scripture I'll take notice...
Both posts were centered around scripture. Apparently, you don't take notice no matter how much scripture someone produces. Very typical.
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Respond? Wow... What a revelation... A post regardless to be said not to me was nonetheless a response to my post and I responded...
No, not respond, pick apart line by line.
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All your opinion...
Blatant scripture shows you are wrong about issues like Jericho, or born/die/born again spiritually, etc. It's not my opinion. Read your Bible.
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Yes, you responded... I don't believe your response dealt with the fact that babies were treated like everyone else...
I don't care if you believe my response was adequate. The scripture in Deuteronomy was clear as day and unambiguous. God himself commanded the Israelites to utterly destroy them so the children of Israel would not take up their practices. Again, please review Deuteronomy 20:13-18.
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Without a doubt little children are in heaven... That doesn't mean all them are...
Well, that's a start.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/18/2008 4:03:38 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5953
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Don't know, don't care. It was God's rationale, not mine. Please review Deuteronomy 20:13-18. I typed it out for you in my post if you don't care to look it up.
In other words you don't have an answer...
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He is just ... but he does and did say to slay them, or more specifically, "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: but thou shalt utterly destroy them."
Did you even read my post and the associated scriptures? Or did you simply take each line and try to answer to each blindly just to be disagreeable? Again, please review Deuteronomy 20:13-18.
I don't need to review the verse... It speaks to the fact God ordered the killing of men, women and children... Which I made the point of here and in all the threads regarding this subject. And nothing in the verse speaks to anyone being innocent... Yet is clear regardless of age, everyone was put to the sword...
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And I made it clear that this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not children are saved, in heaven, or anything else. You are making a pointless argument.
In your opinion...
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You can beg to differ with me as to whether or not it is relevant to this discussion, but it still doesn't pertain. Yes, who gets saved is entirely God's choice. I get that. But Jacob and Esau is about God's plan, not about whether unborn infants or babies sin or go to heaven.
It's all God's plan... It doesn't stop with Jacob and Esau... Who get's saved is God choice, and that choice isn't governed by age...
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Call it my opinion if it pleases you, but it is what it is. You keep saying yourself that God's choice had nothing to do with anything they did, good or bad. I agree. Nothing they did or did not do had anything to do with anything, because the story has nothing to do with that issue whatsoever.
I don't agree... It's all about God's choice... And what man does or doesn't do isn't the prerequisite for salvation...
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Concerning the righteousness of Christ, I didn't make your point. I made my point. Don't take what I say out of context during your dissections.
I believe it made my point... That is my prerogative.
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And Paul's actual teachings in black and white print tell me you are.
Paul never says he was alive in the Spirit prior to his CONVERSION....
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Both posts were centered around scripture. Apparently, you don't take notice no matter how much scripture someone produces. Very typical.
Centered around your view of said scripture. You claim Christ said something, and you have not produce anything of the sort... Your inference about a verse isn't Jesus saying something...
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No, not respond, pick apart line by line.
Again.. That's how I approach posting so for someone to point that out is like calling water wet... Hardly a great revelation... If you want giant paragraphs at the bottom of the post that is not me...
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Blatant scripture shows you are wrong about issues like Jericho, or born/die/born again spiritually, etc. It's not my opinion. Read your Bible.
Your opinion of scripture... There is no verse that say we have multiple spiritual births and that the children at Jericho put to the sword were innocent and the fact they were treated like everyone else point to the fact they were like everyone, guilty...
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I don't care if you believe my response was adequate. The scripture in Deuteronomy was clear as day and unambiguous. God himself commanded the Israelites to utterly destroy them so the children of Israel would not take up their practices. Again, please review Deuteronomy 20:13-18.
I don't deny what He commanded... I brought up the fact He did long ago... The scripture don't point to the children being innocent, and in fact they point to them being treating like everyone else...
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Well, that's a start.
I hoped you'd come around...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 10/18/2008 6:59:46 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ... something something ... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ...
I don't feel like arguing with you anymore. If you decide to acknowledge the valid point I made concerning Jericho in light of Deuteronomy 20:13-18 (and since you clearly forgot what that point was, you might want to reread my posts), perhaps we can move forward. As it stands right now, you would argue anything I said, just for the sake of being right. That's not really my cup of tea. So I'm going to let you have the last word.
For the record, this is not a concession. I just have better things to do.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 11/2/2008 11:27:19 AM
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Death_Venom
Posts: 30
Joined: 10/21/2008
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I would like to comment and say that it is far from biblical to teach or preach that if child (or infant) dies that they would end up in hell. We are /were created the "original sin" but born into a state of innocence. And to condemn one that has NO KNOWLEDGE or COMPREHENSION of Christ, the Bible, or even sin is beyond absurd.
The "original sin" is a burden only relieved by belief and faith in Christ. All other sin is created by us-therefore our responsibility.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 11/4/2008 6:32:59 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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Original Sin is a theological assumption based on interpretations. It is not Biblical fact. In Ezekiel 18:1-20, God himself chastises the Jews for using the proverb, "the fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge." He is clear and unambiguous in saying that the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. God said not to use that proverb anymore. All souls are his. The soul that sins, it shall die, but the soul that is righteous, it shall surely live.
For mankind to bear "original sin," it would have had to pass from father to son, father to son, father to son, from Adam all the way to us.
Sin entered the world through one man, and death by sin, and reigned even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression (who did not sin in the same way as Adam). Death passed upon all men because all have sinned, and the soul that sins shall surely die. The scriptures do not say that death reigned over all men because Adam's sin infected us all with his sin. It says that we all committed sins of our own, which were introduced to the world through Adam's transgression. Because he sinned, we all became sinners (people who sin).
Again, Original Sin is not necessarily a Biblical fact.
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Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 11/4/2008 8:01:19 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4171
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Death_Venom
I would like to comment and say that it is far from biblical to teach or preach that if child (or infant) dies that they would end up in hell. And it is just as unbiblical to assume they all go to heaven as well.
The truth is, this is never addressed in scripture so we just plain do not know.
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Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 11/6/2008 1:25:01 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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Yes it is. Jesus said that their angels do constantly behold the face of his father who is in heaven, and he said it prior to his redeeming sacrifice. Children go to heaven. It is biblical fact.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 11/6/2008 9:47:09 PM
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Death_Venom
Posts: 30
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Death_Venom
I would like to comment and say that it is far from biblical to teach or preach that if child (or infant) dies that they would end up in hell. And it is just as unbiblical to assume they all go to heaven as well.
The truth is, this is never addressed in scripture so we just plain do not know.
Yeah well neither is dating, automobiles, computers, micro-organisms, or jet aircraft.......People need it time to excercise your common sense. God WILL NOT judge someone who is mentally incapable of understanding the Gospel. Just as will GOD will not condemn my 40 year mentally retarded Aunt who has the intellect of 7 year old and undstands almost nothing of the Gospel....
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 11/6/2008 9:53:25 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
God WILL NOT judge someone who is mentally incapable of understanding the Gospel.
How do you know?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 11/7/2008 12:46:48 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5953
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Death_Venom
Yeah well neither is dating, automobiles, computers, micro-organisms, or jet aircraft.......People need it time to excercise your common sense. God WILL NOT judge someone who is mentally incapable of understanding the Gospel.
He judged the people of Jericho... I don't recall any exceptions made for incapable of understanding...
quote:
Just as will GOD will not condemn my 40 year mentally retarded Aunt who has the intellect of 7 year old and undstands almost nothing of the Gospel....
God cannot minister to someone who is mentally retarded? Why? Because man cannot?
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 11/9/2008 1:29:50 AM
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Death_Venom
Posts: 30
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
God WILL NOT judge someone who is mentally incapable of understanding the Gospel.
How do you know?
Obviously God would not be a just, kind and forgiving "god" now would he? This entire thread is the perfect example of placing limitations of the abililities, understanding, and power of GOD.
< Message edited by Death_Venom -- 11/9/2008 1:36:38 AM >
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 11/9/2008 4:46:24 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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Amen to that.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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