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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/1/2008 9:19:24 PM
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theredhog
Posts: 56
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I don't want to hijack the thread here.... quote:
Talk about hitting the nail on the head! I'm coming to the belief also that Satan was indeed the devil from the beginning and that Isa 14 and Ezekial 28 do not apply to Satan at all.
I was taught that those passages referred to Lucifer/Satan. Now, I don't really know what I think about it. What I don't believe is that the devil is some super enemy of God that just appeared with out God's knowledge/permission. If Lucifer was the most beautiful angel ever and pride got the best of him and he evolved into the devil, it's because that's the way the story was written.
God used Israel's consequences of wrong doing to judge them. This, to me, go right along with our having to be on guard because the devil, like a roaring lion, is out to devour us. I can see God using that to "jerk a little slack out of us". This is interesting wording concerning Slewfoot in these passage...
1 Chronicles 21:1 KJV
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2 Samuel 24:1
1.And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say , Go , number Israel and Judah.
I sort of see him/it as God's "flyswat" (that's what we used to get spankings with). He only moves where he is instructed to move. I find it interesting that God, in His anger and Satan are used in the same light.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/3/2008 3:54:34 PM
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frankman
Posts: 207
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theredhog
Point is... God is the originator of the game. No one else makes the rules. Our freewill is limited by the rule maker. The rule is everyone repents. Some repent sooner and are especially blessed. Other have to have some persuasion but they will repent because it's in the rules.
redhog
Don`t you just wish that you could totally agree with everybody all the time? It is true that in Acts 17:30 God does command men everywhere to repent. Trouble is in this life some men will not repent.
Now to your point. You are right in saying at some point in time all men will repent, because it`s in the rules. You could back this up by quoting Phil.2:10+11. "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." This means some day in eternity future every atheist on these forums that so bravely argue with us that there is no God will at the White Throne Judgment bow to Him and acknowledge Him as Lord.  However will bowing and repenting of their sins at that time save them?
Jesus had this to say about Judas the betrayer in Matt.26:24. "But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." Jesus did not include Judas as part of His group of glory bound disciples at the feet washing ritual in John 13:18. "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfil the scripture: He who shares My bread has lifted up his heel against Me." Judas will some day hear these words even after he repents and bows before Jesus from Matt.7:23. "Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from Me, you evildoers!" That is why it would have been better for him never to have been born.
2 Cor.6:2 tells us "I tell you, now is the time of God`s favor, now is the day of salvation." If we wait until we`re dead to repent, we will be asking for God`s grace in vain. Paul urges us in 2 Cor.6:1 "we urge you not to receive God`s grace in vain." For the devil and his angels and for those who refuse to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior hell will be like an unquenchable fire that will separate us from God`s rescue plan for us forever.  WHY? Because that`s just how bad sin is in the eyes of God.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/3/2008 6:25:16 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16934
Joined: 2/28/2005
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I'm not sure if there has been a warning placed in this thread before, but TOS 15 states:
15. You will not promote by repeated statements, by provision of URLs to other Web sites, by recommendation to engage in non-community activities such as watching programs, reading books, or attending events, or by any other means, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by Salem Web Network in its sole discretion.
A sustained argument that there is no eternal Hell violates TOS 15 and our Range of Doctrine.
A blog entry by Albert Mohler reads in part:
No doctrine stands alone. There is no way to modify belief in hell without modifying the Gospel itself, for hell is an essential part of the framework of the Gospel and of the preaching of Jesus. Hell cannot be remodeled without reconstructing the Gospel message.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/3/2008 7:47:46 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 213
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What is the gospel message? My understanding is that God sent Jesus here for the purpose of saving men from their sins. At least that's what the angel told Mary. I think Jesus will be overwhelmingly successful in the fullness of time.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/4/2008 4:21:13 PM
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frankman
Posts: 207
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quote:
ORIGINAL:
A blog entry by Albert Mohler reads in part:
No doctrine stands alone. There is no way to modify belief in hell without modifying the Gospel itself, for hell is an essential part of the framework of the Gospel and of the preaching of Jesus. Hell cannot be remodeled without reconstructing the Gospel message.
Albert Mohler is so right. There are two things certain in life besides taxes. You have a beginning. You were born. According to 1 Tim.6:16 only God is immortal, meaning He has no beginning like we have. The other thing that is certain is that once we`re born, we will live forever. This is because we are created in the image of God, who again according to 1 Tim.6:16, we read God is immortal, meaning He has no end. So because we`re created in His image, we too will have no end.
Now how is this related to the Gospel? Men was created by God to live in paradise forever; yes, right here on this beautiful earth. However when men disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, our holy God had to be true to His promise recorded for us in Gen.2:17. "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Now this death means physical death only. Because we`re created in God`s image, our souls will live on forever and can`t be destroyed. Yet because of our sin, our souls are spiritually dead also. By this I mean that even though our souls are still very much alive, they are dead in respect to being in a relationship with God. Thus this will prevent our souls from ever entering heaven because we read in the Bible that no sin will be allowed into heaven. Rev.21:8 tells us where our sinful souls will end up. "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Remember, the second death is not soul annihalition as some teach, for again, because we`re created in God`s image, men`s souls can not be annihilated.
So what hope is there for us? The Gospel is our only hope. The Gospel is believing that Christ died in our place on the cross. It is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. As Mr. Mohler stated, the crucial issue is faith in Christ.
So faith in Christ saves us from eternal condemnation. Remove eternal condemnation and you may ask, what is the urgency of having faith in Christ if it`s for this life only, or at the end of the day we`ll somehow all will be saved anyhows, or maybe annihilated? If this were the case God could have also prevented the death of His Son from dieing on the cross for our sins. But as you can see, there was no other way for God to be true to His Word and still redeem us. Jesus had to die to redeem us from the ever eternal pit of hell that we are all destined for because of our sins. Jesus died on the cross as our substitude. Jesus died to save us from hell. Take hell out of this sentence and you have deminished the importance of Christ`s death for us on the cross. The Bible also teaches that only those who believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior in this life will Jesus be able to successfully prevent from spenting eternity in hell.  So if somebody is teaching you something different, they are clearly teaching you from a different book than the Bible.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/5/2008 12:00:04 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 213
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
Jesus died to save us from hell. Take hell out of this sentence and you have deminished the importance of Christ
Interesting that the apostles preaching in Acts right after spending 3 years with Christ never preached that he saved us from eternal hell.
They did speak of a time of judgment but never specifically mentioned eternal hell.
And that is such a compelling image that to not scream it from the rooftops as they should have if it were true is unexplainable.
Eternal hell is such an unimaginable punishment that if believers really believe it in their hearts that God intends this for the overwhelming majority of mankind , then these folks should be out in the streets preaching this every minute of their lives.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/5/2008 6:06:35 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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steve7150,
quote:
Interesting that the apostles preaching in Acts right after spending 3 years with Christ never preached that he saved us from eternal hell.
It's also interesting that the apostle Paul also 'forgot' to mention it...not even once, in writing over one third of the NT. And, as I understand it, he was still considered a pretty good evangelist. It just makes one wonder if he knew something then, that most don't know today?
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/5/2008 9:42:38 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16934
Joined: 2/28/2005
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steve7150
An email has been sent to your account. If you did not receive it please contact community@salemwebnetwork.com
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/6/2008 1:06:12 AM
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theredhog
Posts: 56
Joined: 9/23/2008
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Also from Alber Mohler's blog:
quote:
That this is true within the culture at large is not surprising. But when those who claim identity as evangelical Christians begin to modify the doctrine, this should set off alarms.
No doctrine stands alone. There is no way to modify belief in hell without modifying the Gospel itself, for hell is an essential part of the framework of the Gospel and of the preaching of Jesus. Hell cannot be remodeled without reconstructing the Gospel message.
Wonder if any alarms were set off back in the 6th century when Universal Salvation was declared as heresy? Wonder if any were shaking their heads and saying, "My, my what are they saying about the savior?" One has to ask...WHEN did Hell become an essential part of the framework of the gospel? Was it ever prophesied about in the Old Testament, concerning the coming of the messiah? I think the message was "He shall save His people from their SINS." Daniel alludes to punishment for the resurrected disobedient and says they will be raised to shame and everlasting contempt.
When Jesus sat down to read from Isaiah in Luke 4, He told what He came for and Hell was not even hinted at. I don't believe one can find the verse that says "Jesus died to save us from Hell." I will apologize if I am wrong, though. Not only did Paul not mention Hell, Jesus, Himself didn't mention it to several people He encountered, unless the Bible just did not record it.
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
What is the acceptable year of the Lord? Is it not the time of forgiveness, freedom, and restoration?
Who was the Hell punishment directed to? Sinners?___ God's chosen people?___
According to Matthew 23:39, is Hell endless? ___ What is the Greek word for Brimstone? ___
What word is it derived from?___ Is the lake of fire in the presence of the Lamb and the Holy angels?___
What is the Greek work for torment?___
Would it be unfair for God not to mention Hell to some people? ___
In the Hell scriptures, can we find anything about accepting Christ as our savior? ___
Why did Lazarus go to Abraham's bosom? Why did the rich man go to Hell? ...no mention of either of them accepting Jesus as savior.
Matthew 25:41,46...no mention of accepting Jesus as savior.
I probably should bow out of this discussion, myself. because I do not believe Hell is endless. But, the internet is absolutely full of information on both positions, all three positions, actually. If we remain ignorant it is not because we have to.
redhog
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/6/2008 1:28:38 AM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2113
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From: TX
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Paul most certainly spoke of hell.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
Revelation 14:10
he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
The lake of fire is the ultimate expression of God's wrath against sin. It will be eternal. By the way, 1Thess 1:10 is also the verse that tells us that Jesus Christ came to save us from hell.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/6/2008 1:04:58 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
I know that it seems highly unlikely that most of the church could have it wrong.
I agree, though I'm guessing in a different way than you meant it. God gave us each other to hold us accountable. There's no reason to think that we, on our own, can somehow reach a "divine" revelation that contradicts so much of established doctrine (unless, as was the case with Luther, that established doctrine clearly went against Scripture). When people start getting those ideas, it's not unusual for a cult to follow.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/6/2008 2:49:10 PM
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theredhog
Posts: 56
Joined: 9/23/2008
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igmentPez,
Daniel 7:13-14 seems to agree with the purpose of the wrath of God being for the purpose of holding one's feet to the fire until they realize there is only one true God and they are not it.
saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
The wrath of God upon the children of disobedience, or on all who do not know God, or on those who do not believe(John 3:36) for a temporary period would make sense IF "all people, nations, and languages" should serve Him. If every knee is going to bow and every tongue is going to confess Christ as Lord. Keep in mind Paul also said that NO ONE can say Christ is Lord without the Holy Spirit inspiring them to do so. IF, Christ is to draw/drag ALL to Himself, doesn't it stand to reason that the one's who don't come on their own, will have to be shown their "wrongness" and upon seeing that, upon being ashamed and sorry for their sins, upon realizing their spiritual thirst, take of the water of Life freely?
In the book of Revelation, we read.."let him who is righteous be righteous still, let him who is filthy be filthy still. We also read that the ones who are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.
Paul also says...6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his F1 mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Also notice in Daniel 7 the "stream of fire"
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives F53 were prolonged for a season and time. 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
This is the reason I believe the lake of fire is God, Himself, or the presence of God..however you want to see it. The believes are there in the fire as well as the "beasts" being destroyed in the fire.
There is no other option, there is no other game, there is no other way to God than through His son. I believe the stubborn, the atheists, the evildoers, the disobedient, everybody who is against God's way of doing things, will be in the fire of everlasting/aionion destruction until they bow to Christ. And, they may bow long before the religious ones do. According to Jesus, the "religious" can actually keep people out of the kingdom. But, not forever if Christ is to reign until all are in submission to Him.
The kingdom of God, now, seems to be like the Holy City coming down from heaven. No sin is in it. Nothing that defiles it. We may think we are in it as being part of the church system but I suppose that would depend on what is in our hearts and where our loyalty lies. ...why some will hear, "depart I never knew you".
We will all die to the flesh..the willing believers and the unwilling unbelievers. The "fake" believers having their part with the unbelievers. That is a very sobering thought too, it "disciplines" me as I write, now. Though all, eventually, will come to Christ, it has to be a scary thing to fall into the hands of a living God.
God's kingdom is an everlasting/endless kingdom(emphasized by which shall not pass away) ] That does not mean the God's punishment is endless.
I trust that I am not "wresting" scriptures into what I want them to say. I try to fall back and see things from the eternal torment view but there are just so many things that point to that not being the case. But, if I should find that I am wrong, I will concede, and, try my best to keep as many people out of Hell as I possibly can.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 11/6/2008 3:15:11 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16934
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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I just don't see how we can keep this thread open and not have our members violate TOS. Therefore this thread is closed pending admin review.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Please review our FAQ for an explanation as to why one cannot confront a moderator directly.
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