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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/26/2008 7:33:00 PM
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InfoCentral
Posts: 158
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Yep, the whole world will be awe struck by it and be in amazement at how it ever came to be. The storm is on the horizon and we have barely pushed out to sea.
Even if we do this bail out we still haven't solved the whole problem. This is not the magic bullet. There are a lot of economists that are lining up stating that it might solve the financial firms there are still plenty of things going wrong that it won't touch. Then where is the money for them? We have the automotive sector which said they need a hand out too and I believe received 15 billion from congress this week. We have AIG going under and with the storms doing damage there is talk that more insurance companies are stating they may need help as well as the claims rise. The joblessness is on rise. This whole thing is beginning to unravel. Even the great American is now turning to socialism to solve the chaos. It won't be long before everyone gets grouped together and we all get taken down. This is where we change form the USA to the USSA. And we have no one to blame but ourselves, greed, and drive for more and more materialism.
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/26/2008 8:13:55 PM
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prophet
Posts: 692
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
In six months, we will be rebuilding power plants and power lines. A lot of it will be wind turbines- they're easy to install and there's enough wind to meet the US's entire electrical needs several times over. GM and the factories will be back on their feet within 18 months, and within two years, we'll be back to full employment. In four years, everyone will have a plug-in hybrid, and in fifteen years, we will certainly be back to managing the world's agricultural commodities markets- as well as probably the equities markets as well. You ignore the fact that this is a country with several million engineers, not to mention ~70 million college graduates.
So you haven't really made the case that we will stay a third-world country for more than six months.
Yes, in the past this would happen.
But globalisation has changed that completely. Your fgures above will be challneged by China and India. USA will not have their way anymore. USA owes a lot to the rest of the world, esp China.
Another thing about recession, IMO its nature is also changed completely by globalisation.....eg stats shows growth overall BUT you have high unemployment, defalting housing mkts of gigantic proportions, etc -all signs of recession
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/26/2008 11:09:57 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2010
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Yes, in the past this would happen.
But globalisation has changed that completely. Your fgures above will be challneged by China and India. USA will not have their way anymore. USA owes a lot to the rest of the world, esp China.
But here's the thing. The US *can* exist as an island if it needs to, and assuming that we aren't invaded, starting off with only the US's resources and talent would be one option for us. We have iron, coal, water, arable land, wood, uranium, wind, natural gas, and sunlight. We don't have a lot of oil, but it looks like we're moving away from that anyways.
Most states limit outsiders' ability to own cropland, for instance. In most cases, you have to be an actual person (not a corporation) who is a resident of that state. Chinese corporations would not be able to own grandpa's farm unless, again, there was an invasion. There tend to be similar rules on natural resources. China might be able to force a farmer to sell his farm and give China the proceeds, but another American would wind up owning it.
So it would be difficult for American resources to fall completely out of our hands, and certainly possible for us to start off with a clean slate if we had to declare "national bankruptcy". They might take our gold, steel mills, factories, cars, houses, and power plants off to China, but we'd get to keep our skills and our natural resources. From there, we could rebuild the economy.
I'm not saying cutting off all trade with other countries is the best thing, but it certainly is an option, and we could certainly get back to being a first-world country in 20 years without any trade if we started from a clean slate.
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RE: Historically, only a 99% free-market economy - 9/28/2008 11:19:33 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 2080
Joined: 3/24/2008
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You guys are so talking over my head. But you're making me feel a little better.
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RE: Historically, only a 99% free-market economy - 9/28/2008 8:25:04 PM
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prophet
Posts: 692
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Globalisation has changed the worlds econoimics and financial systems. Imo that you cannot rveerse this phenom.i agree that for natural resources only an invasion will change that. China did try legally with unicol as i recall!
For a clean slate to happen, it has to capitulate. Its just impossible to start clean from the 1920s scenario with the world so well connected. Internets changed that for sure.
Yes, US used to have the top Human resources, But thats all changed now. Whatever edge that US had is slowly been caught up. i guess the greatest strength that US had is now gone, the USD. The USD is slowly losing its status as the worlds currency.
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Historically, only a 99% free-market economy - 9/29/2008 12:44:48 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11752
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quote:
Yes, US used to have the top Human resources, But thats all changed now. Whatever edge that US had is slowly been caught up. i guess the greatest strength that US had is now gone, the USD. The USD is slowly losing its status as the worlds currency.
I dunno, Proph--the US still has the edge in coming up with ideas and technology, but other countries are better at taking the ideas, refining them and making products cheaper (and in some cases better).
I never thought the USD was our greatest strength. But, as far as currency goes, I read an article today about the Polish zloty (think I spelled that right) and how its strength has always been a source of national pride--but now it is so strong in the face of the Euro that no one will export Polish products. I think Czechoslovakia was in there too, somewhere. So it doesn't alays help.
(I will, of course, continue to feed my addiction to Polish pottery...but that's a illness, right?  )
ETA HERE is the article.
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RE: Historically, only a 99% free-market economy - 9/29/2008 1:29:29 AM
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prophet
Posts: 692
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
I dunno, Proph--the US still has the edge in coming up with ideas and technology, but other countries are better at taking the ideas, refining them and making products cheaper (and in some cases better).
I never thought the USD was our greatest strength. But, as far as currency goes, I read an article today about the Polish zloty (think I spelled that right) and how its strength has always been a source of national pride--but now it is so strong in the face of the Euro that no one will export Polish products. I think Czechoslovakia was in there too, somewhere. So it doesn't alays help.
(I will, of course, continue to feed my addiction to Polish pottery...but that's a illness, right? )
ETA HERE is the article.
Hi Ps
By strength i mean that its precieved as the worlds currency(an important benchmark). Its all about perception. Valuation wise IMO its a bankrupt currency, more so with the US banking crisis and the expansion of the US fiat currency.
When the world uses USD as the benchmark for trading, it gains certain recognition and trust. However, in the recent years of US living in debt has caught with it.....the trust is beginning to vapourise..
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 10:39:00 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1425
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Yes, in the past this would happen.
But globalisation has changed that completely. Your fgures above will be challneged by China and India. USA will not have their way anymore. USA owes a lot to the rest of the world, esp China.
But here's the thing. The US *can* exist as an island if it needs to, and assuming that we aren't invaded, starting off with only the US's resources and talent would be one option for us. We have iron, coal, water, arable land, wood, uranium, wind, natural gas, and sunlight. We don't have a lot of oil, but it looks like we're moving away from that anyways.
I certainly don't want the US to "exist" as an Island....and to entirely reject "globalization"....we've had more jobs COME here to the U.S. from overseas, than U.S. companies have "sent" overseas! (and, in many instances, when SOME jobs are sent overseas by companies, within a short time period, their staff numbers in the U.S. GROW to a number ABOVE what it was before).....
quote:
eg stats shows growth overall BUT you have high unemployment, defalting housing mkts of gigantic proportions, etc -all signs of recession
the most recent unemployment number is 6.1% nationally. No, not as great as it has been in recent years, but, nothing close to what one would call "HIGH" (except in states and regions that insist on having political policies that repel job growth and business development, who have had the 6% number and higher for a while now, like my homestate of Michigan)........once it gets to 8% or so and above, THEN that's starting to get into "HIGH" territory.
Unemployment numbers come out on Friday..and, I would expect that 6.1 number to rise...how much? hmmm....hard to say.
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 1:48:18 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 685
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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The Bill did not pass the house. There were almost an immediate 300 on the dow jones industrial.
G
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 2:18:33 PM
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Lady_of_Faith
Posts: 81
Joined: 9/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
The Bill did not pass the house. There were almost an immediate 300 on the dow jones industrial.
G
Yeah, I just watched the breaking news report. I'm not a student on how the whole Dow Jones works and all, but since the bailout didn't pass what happens now?
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 2:36:34 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11752
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From: Here, now
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We could ask for a vote to keelhaul Nancy Pelosi....
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 2:39:06 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 685
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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LOL I listened to the discussion live bout 2 hours until the vote. That woman hurts my head.
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 3:22:07 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
We could ask for a vote to keelhaul Nancy Pelosi....
I'd vote for it, but only if it's a joint resolution to include Eric Cantor in the keelhauling. Pelosi's speech was stupid, but Cantor's comments after the vote were worse. In effect he said it's all Pelosi's fault - if she hadn't tried to score political points in getting the thing passed people would have voted for it. He additionally objected to the short notice provided to congress to "get up to speed on the bill and on the economy."
Now, that means that the bill failed because the Republicans objected to the Democrats attempt to get all the political points. They didn't want the Democrats to get the political points and instead wanted the political points for themselves and voted down a good bill to prove the point.
My other issue is on Cantors statement that they didn't have enough time to get up to speed on the economy. Now, this has been going on since Nov/December of 2006. How much time do you need, for cryin' out loud. I read the bill last night after dinner and got up to speed fairly quickly.
Ugh. So much stupidity, so little time.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Financial Socialism - 9/29/2008 3:48:24 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2847
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
For the record, reading the posts here it seems to me we're still caught up in the bubble/bust mentality of recent years. During the bubble, most folks acted as if nothing could ever go wrong and that there was no reason for prudence. Now, as the bubble has unwound, we've all gone the opposite direction and now seem to feel as if nothing can go right. The sky is falling and there's nothing I can do about it.
In reality, times past were never as good as we thought and the future will not be as bad as we fear. It's human nature to swing between these two extremes. It's good to keep that in mind and not let fickle emotion, greed, nor fear drive our financial, political, and personal decision-making.
Done with my soapbox now. Carry on.
I don't think the posts are so much driven by pessimism about the economy ever going right as they are about the congress and the presidents (Bush and Clinton primarily) betraying our trust. I can't help but think "burn me once shame on you; burn me twice shame on me." Bet many others feel the same.
Or to put it very bluntly: the same people who have royally "messed us over" are asking us to trust them to fix this mess?! Man, it's tough to do that.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Financial Socialism - 9/29/2008 3:57:07 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
I don't think the posts are so much driven by pessimism about the economy ever going right as they are about the congress and the presidents (Bush and Clinton primarily) betraying our trust. I can't help but think "burn me once shame on you; burn me twice shame on me." Bet many others feel the same.
Or to put it very bluntly: the same people who have royally "messed us over" are asking us to trust them to fix this mess?! Man, it's tough to do that.
I think this is a big part of it as well. Unfortunately, GW has lost so much credibility over the years that he just doesn't have the swing to pull the troops along with him.
Worse than that, he let Paulson go to the hill with a fatally flawed initial package that wasn't passable (thinking the near-unilateral powers that were to be entrusted to the Sec. of the Treasury here.)
I think that further poisoned the atmosphere and made the deal very difficult to get done.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Financial Socialism - 9/29/2008 3:59:14 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2847
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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I agree that the initial proposal has left such a sour taste in everyone's mouth that they are still spewing venom over the audacity of it -- not to mention us taking it in the shorts over Wall Street's brazeness.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Financial Socialism - 9/29/2008 4:17:09 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 685
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
Or to put it very bluntly: the same people who have royally "messed us over" are asking us to trust them to fix this mess?! Man, it's tough to do that.
There is a lot of truth in this argument. I think this is how a lot of people are thinking.
G
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Financial Socialism - 9/29/2008 4:26:52 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
I agree that the initial proposal has left such a sour taste in everyone's mouth that they are still spewing venom over the audacity of it -- not to mention us taking it in the shorts over Wall Street's brazeness.
I'll admit the first time I read that initial proposal I threw a box full of pencils down the hallway. I knew it would fail as a result. It just wasn't necessary, and it doomed the bill. "Audacity" is a good word for it. "Hubris" works. "Arrogant" also comes to mind.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 4:38:31 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11752
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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quote:
Ugh. So much stupidity, so little time.
Brother, you said a mouthful.
I wonder how roast Congressman (oh, pardon me--Congressperson) tastes? I think it would be real gristly and lots of fat (in the head area), but if we cook 'em real slow.....
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 5:13:46 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
Ugh. So much stupidity, so little time.
Brother, you said a mouthful.
I wonder how roast Congressman (oh, pardon me--Congressperson) tastes? I think it would be real gristly and lots of fat (in the head area), but if we cook 'em real slow.....
I hear Texas has good barbeque technology. Worth looking into.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 6:39:16 PM
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BJinWA
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/9/2007
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quote:
I hear Texas has good barbeque technology.
yeah, it starts with keelhauling instead of marinating.
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RE: Economic Stimulus Package - 9/29/2008 8:20:44 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2847
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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Crankius,
Why are you glad it was defeated?
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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