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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/18/2009 3:34:24 PM
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EaZiE
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I understand love not to be understood in isolation but in its multifaceted characteristics:
1 Cor. 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
So when the bible says God is love it is saying that He is all those above and holiness, righteousness, truthfulness, faithfulness, wisdom and knowledge. Which actions are holy. So only when we understand all of these to be a part of God's love can we call God love. Not so sure its as easy to attribute all that to light or life. A parent uses wisdom in the upbringing of a child and so disciplines him/her and so teaches justice and righteousness because that parent loves him. Light or life doesn't have the same multitude of characteristics but are results of God's love.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/18/2009 11:12:05 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Maybe God's "essence" is love AND holiness....just sayin'.
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
"Our will are ours, we know not how; our wills are ours, to make them Thine." - Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/19/2009 9:26:38 AM
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Mannamuncher
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Defining God immediately LIMITS God.
We are incapable and unworthy to describe God.
Even God says any likeness or idol-making is sin.
We preclude any real and true illustration of The
Almighty when we form constructs and boundaries.
God can or cannot be this or that is not suited for I AM.
God's essence is best left alone for God to reveal.
To compartmentalize God is to reduce Him to our level.
Finding similarities, seeking familiarity, or fostering a
sense of camaraderie is simply humanization of God.
Isolating our favorite characteristics and attributes of
God is merely subjective justification. It's deck stacking.
We make God into our likeness, with the qualities we
like, admire, and prefer in order to suit our carnal fancies.
Sure, God=LOVE. Sure God=HOLY. Sure, God =?...
It is not our place to determine or decide what God is.
How does God want to be known ? What is His rep ?
Does God really want to be seen in a certain light ?
I AM THAT I AM...
_____________________________
For our lack of righteousness there is no disguise
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/19/2009 2:13:13 PM
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EaZiE
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Sure, God=LOVE. Sure God=HOLY. Sure, God =?...
It is not our place to determine or decide what God is.
How does God want to be known ? What is His rep ?
Does God really want to be seen in a certain light ?
I AM THAT I AM...
As the bible is the revelation of God to man we don't decide what God is. He reveals Himself to us. As opposed to, say, the despotic god of the ancient Babylonians (man made ideas), God has revealed Himself to us as a loving God that calls partners to a life relationship with Him. I would say He definitely wants to be seen in a certain light. I AM THAT I AM is a verse that reveals His authority and eternity. Even so, if it is taken in isolation it doesn't give us all of the attributes of God. In the matter of holiness sometimes its hard for us to accept that the boundaries are really directions for a loving life. We think of them as stringent rules but its really the schoolmaster of the Holy Spirit for a relational (God and man) life.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/21/2009 11:44:32 PM
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walterquez
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God is Love. Holiness is not an essence; it just means that He is separate.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/22/2009 11:21:21 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Maybe God's "essence" is love AND holiness....just sayin'. Well bro, ya be sayin' right! There is no love without holiness and there is no holiness without love - for BOTH God and His sanctified children!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/23/2009 12:11:36 AM
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sue244
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I've always thought of God's attributes as overlapping and all part of each other but I think that they all fall under Holiness.
Holy: Set Apart
All of His attributes are perfect and set apart from anything that human can achieve.
God is Love, but God is Holy as well. 1 Pet 1:16
I think we are in danger when we focus on one of His attributes over the others but I would probably err on the side of holiness in this debate.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/23/2009 12:52:00 AM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Maybe God's "essence" is love AND holiness....just sayin'. Well bro, ya be sayin' right! There is no love without holiness and there is no holiness without love - for BOTH God and His sanctified children!
Yes indeed! I didn't, and don't, mean to make light of this topic, but to me it really doesn't matter if God's "essence" is love or holiness. If His essence is love, that doesn't make His holiness any lesser, and vice versa. God is love, and God is holy. He is also perfect, just, angry, etc. I think the author mentioned in the OP who "begs to differ with Christianity" is just one of those theologians who loves to argue, and who fantasizes about inventing a new idea SIMPLY to cause strife and gather his own followers. The Bible warns us about those who spread strife among the brethren. To those kind of individuals I have but one bit of advice--don't quite your day job.
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
"Our will are ours, we know not how; our wills are ours, to make them Thine." - Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/23/2009 1:01:02 AM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
I've always thought of God's attributes as overlapping and all part of each other but I think that they all fall under Holiness.
Holy: Set Apart
All of His attributes are perfect and set apart from anything that human can achieve.
God is Love, but God is Holy as well. 1 Pet 1:16
I think we are in danger when we focus on one of His attributes over the others but I would probably err on the side of holiness in this debate.
Great minds think alike  I was about to write almost the exact same thing, sue.
All "attributes" of God are perfect, "holy". The love of God is perfect love, what love should look like. The jealousy of God is perfect, what jealously should look like. The violence of God is perfect. The anger of God is perfect. The patience of God is perfect. The wisdom of God is perfect. Etc, etc. etc.
All of His attributes are what makes Him "Holy".
Yes, but the alternative case can also be made, in that holiness is not pure without love. You seem to add a degree of completion to all the attributes of God, and that degree of completion is "holiness", which in turn makes holiness the "top dog" or determining factor of God's attributes, but in so doing you left out the degree of completion for His holiness. All of His attributes are intertwined, one completing the other. What makes holiness perfected holiness? Something's got to! Well, love, I guess. And what makes love perfected love? Well, holiness, I guess. What what makes justice, anger, violence, jealousy, etc perfect? Well, each and every one of them makes the other perfect.
My point is that God's essence is simply that--HIS ESSENCE. His attributes are who and what He is, each no greater than the other.
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
"Our will are ours, we know not how; our wills are ours, to make them Thine." - Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/23/2009 5:14:27 AM
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ManimalX
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And, His "essence" is summed up in this: HOLY!
As prolifepj pointed out, what is the eternal cry in the presence of God?
Not, "Love, love, love!"
Not, "Mercy, mercy, mercy!"
Not, "Violence, violence, violence!"
Not, "Eternal, eternal, eternal"
Not, "Justice, justice, justice!"
Not, "Patience, patience, patience!"
Not, "Joy, joy, joy!"
Not, "Wise, wise, wise!"
What is the eternal cry around the throne of God? Isa 6:3, Rev 4:8
"Holy, holy, holy!"
EDIT: Not that we won't be praising God for those other things, just that they are all summed up in "Holy".
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 12/23/2009 5:13:34 PM >
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/25/2009 11:51:17 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4379
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
I've always thought of God's attributes as overlapping and all part of each other but I think that they all fall under Holiness.
Holy: Set Apart
All of His attributes are perfect and set apart from anything that human can achieve.
God is Love, but God is Holy as well. 1 Pet 1:16
I think we are in danger when we focus on one of His attributes over the others but I would probably err on the side of holiness in this debate.
Yeah, holiness is like the nucleus of everything else.
All the attributes are "rooted" in holiness (if that makes sense).
Although, none of us know God enough to promulgate in this arena.
We are at best speculating, based on our interpretation and limitation.
The "God is love" buzzwordish slogan is true, but falls short...
God is love becomes a stopping place for many and stultifies growth.
In a way, "God is love" can be viewed as an elementary teaching.
My 3 year old grandson understand this, but he is clueless regarding righteousness.
New Christians easily identify with God's love, but in time realize there's more !
I remember teaching Sunday school to a class with many 60+ year olds.
They were uncomfortable when the topics were justice, wrath, Sovereignty,
God's right to govern as He pleases, but they perked up when LOVE was spoken !
I like what you said about the dis-proportionality of God's attributes.
We can delude ourselves into thinking of God in a limiting manner.
Unfortunately, what many are prone to do is OVER-emphasize the
traits of God they like and agree with, while diminishing His other traits.
_____________________________
For our lack of righteousness there is no disguise
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/25/2009 11:58:54 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The "God is love" buzzwordish slogan is true, but falls short...
God is love becomes a stopping place for many and stultifies growth.
In a way, "God is love" can be viewed as an elementary teaching. This is a sadly incomplete misunderstanding of the importance of God's Love in true Christian faith. God's Love should really be the ultimate goal of each and every Christian as we strive to obey the Two Greatest Commands with His grace and power. There is no greater expression of God's Love to us than our love to Him by loving His children. Anyone who considers this "elementary teaching" is grossly misinformed!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/25/2009 12:28:37 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4379
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
I understand love not to be understood in isolation but in its multifaceted characteristics:
1 Cor. 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Is this an example of God's love or what man's love should be ?
God cannot envy, and the absence of pride is not a God characteristic.
I am not being disruptive, but making a meaningful observation.
You have structured the argument in such a manner that 1 Cor 13
is being exhibited as a definition of God's love, when that is not it's purpose.
The Corinthian passage is not accurate in depicting God's love.
To use the passage as a description of God would be incomplete.
IOW, there is an implicit deficiency in God's love by using this verse.
If I wanted to say "God is Love", I couldn't based on this truncated list.
What causes God to forgive ?
What causes God to be merciful & kind ?
Wouldn't both of these "lean" towards love ?
Where then did God's holiness go ?
What causes God's wrath ?
What causes God justice ?
Wouldn't these "lean" towards holiness ?
Or does God condemn lovingly ?
A valid question surrounding the essence of God is this-
What is the attribute that John 3:16 is based on ?
In this specific regard, does holiness have a role ?
God is Who He is.
I know as humans we like to pigeonhole and compartmentalize.
To do so may not be detrimental, but certainly understates God's Magnificence.
_____________________________
For our lack of righteousness there is no disguise
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 12/25/2009 1:39:56 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Is this an example of God's love or what man's love should be ? This is the reality of any sanctified Believer who has consecrated her/his entire being to the Will of God and is living every moment submitted to the Holy Spirit by showing and sharing the Love of Christ to all. Very simple, MM, all by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
quote:
God is Who He is. Indeed! And when we are crucified with Christ then He now lives in us so that we may be who He is - love and holiness!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 1/3/2010 11:21:52 AM
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rcjames
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Love and Holiness are tied together.
As witnesses unto Christ we cannot walk in love without walking in Holiness, and vice-versa.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 1/5/2010 4:33:48 PM
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Wayne230
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From: Portland Oregon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EaZiE
I'm doing a bible study and the author is "begging to differ" with most Christians view that God is in essence Love. He claims God's essence is not Love, but Holiness. It seems his point is to fix the whole cheap grace thing which is understandable.
The bible spells it out clearly that God is Love. It also says that God is Holy.
My thoughts are that true love is holy. We as fallen humans may call leniency grace. This is the way I think the author has come to the so called dichotomy. But with God there is no dichotomy. Yet, I think that Love covers a broader spectrum in its truest sense. "it rejoices not in iniquity, but in the truth". If Holiness means separate, it is not God's intent to be separate. But He is Holy because He is Love. And because He is the only One that is Love.
Any thoughts? Should the characteristics of God not be separated at all?
I think your OP said it best. We can't talk about God and leave out either his love or his holiness. We who love him probably won't understand this totally until we get to meet Him face to face. which I am looking forward to
_____________________________
I am not perfect just forgiven
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 1/16/2010 8:42:48 PM
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jbow
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God is Spirit I think we can say that His essence is shown or summed up in the "fruit of the Spirit", which come's only from Him... it may be manifested through us but only as we live in the Spirit. So, both Love and Holiness... and more.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 1/21/2010 8:30:54 PM
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EaZiE
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In a sense, an unbeliever can love, but he can't be holy. Whatever God does it begins and ends with Him.
_____________________________
In a word, the future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time--for the past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. -Screwtape Letters
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 1/22/2010 11:22:34 PM
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Wayne230
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I agree! We all have the capacity to love but only God is holy according to his standards. but we can be complete which is the next best thing.
_____________________________
I am not perfect just forgiven
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 1/23/2010 9:04:43 AM
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drmark
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quote:
We all have the capacity to love but only God is holy according to his standards. If we do not have the capacity to be holy, then why does God command that we be as holy as He is? How can we be responsible for something He knows we cannot be, according to your position?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 1/23/2010 10:48:14 AM
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Saved34
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I don't think you can contain God like that. I think Love comes from God, Holiness comes from God. God transcends all of the finite thoughts that we have about things. Apart from God we would know nothing of Holiness or Love. I think that is why he says "I AM".
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: God's essence. Is it Love or Holiness? - 1/23/2010 12:03:16 PM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
Apart from God we would know nothing of Holiness or Love. I think that is why he says "I AM". You and I are the only 2 to say this ! Not really. E1ng pretty much said the very same thing in his post #35 above - "My point is that God's essence is simply that--HIS ESSENCE. His attributes are who and what He is, each no greater than the other."
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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Amen!