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How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 10:18:22 AM
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John_O
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I was tossing around some ideas to myself this morning. (Don't have anyone else to toss them to on the drive in)
I don't have a few assets that need to be protected for the Girl, the money she received from her mommy for example (her college fund).
I was also considering how people get destroyed in divorce due to infidelity.
Although as Christians we should know that "Thou shalt not commit adultery" means just don't do it at all, there are still far too many who do. No fault divorce has eliminated almost all societal consequences to committing adultery.
I've always believed that marriage is "till death do us part" and that short of a biblicaly valid reason (adultery, abandonment or abuse) the marriage does not end.
So what would you think of a pre-nup that formalizes what we should be doing anyway?
Such as:
"The marriage will not be ended except for biblically valid reasons, that is, Adultery, abandonment or abuse. The person who breaks the marriage by commiting adultery or by abandonment or by chronic abuse forfeits all posessions and increase gained during the marriage. They forfeit custody of the children and pets as well. They leave the marriage with only what they brought into it."
(I state chronic abuse as any argument could be called abuse by someone looking for a way out)
Of course this is entirely theoretical at this time as I have no fiance, no girlfriend and so far at this time no prospects.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 11:36:17 AM
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Julie1955
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I have no problem with having a pre-nup. I have some assets that were given to me as a gift, and it is my old age rocking chair money. Whatever assets he has are his, not mine; and whatever assets are mine, not his.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 12:47:02 PM
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Re.Focusing
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I am against pre-nups between believers.
If I dated a man and we became engaged and he asked me to sign a pre-nup with the verbage "The marriage will not be ended except for biblically valid reasons" ... that tells me he has something in the back of his mind that is unsettled in his trust in me. If a marriage is not built on a firm foundation, it will crumble.
I personally view a pre-nup as a crack in the foundation.
_____________________________
. . . when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 1:09:47 PM
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Hazel2
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My husband "playfully" brought up the idea of a prenup before we married. I was horrified. It is like saying "we will never get divorced, but IF WE DO, here is how we will do it".
I have daughters and would advise them to leave a situation in which a man requires a prenup to marry. Divorce is messy and ugly ... as it should be!
_____________________________
Will you please remember my husband, John, in prayer He is not saved. Thank you and God bless you!
"Be kind. Everyone you meet is in the midst of a great battle" Plato
I sometimes blog at defrazzled.blogspot.com
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 1:13:00 PM
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Hazel2
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One more thing ... I know the character of my husband and he knows mine. If you feel your "best beloved forever" may screw you over in a split, then you need to reexamine your marriage plans! I would bet on John making sure I wasn't without a home, without a way to take care of our children, etc. In fact, when I married him, I was in a sense, making an enormous bet on that man. It was a good one and I wouldn't weaken my trust in him by trying to document a "pretty resolution to disolution". Decent people act decently even in adverse situations.
_____________________________
Will you please remember my husband, John, in prayer He is not saved. Thank you and God bless you!
"Be kind. Everyone you meet is in the midst of a great battle" Plato
I sometimes blog at defrazzled.blogspot.com
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 1:45:23 PM
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blueeyedgirl2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: desertgirl
I am against pre-nups between believers.
If I dated a man and we became engaged and he asked me to sign a pre-nup with the verbage "The marriage will not be ended except for biblically valid reasons" ... that tells me he has something in the back of his mind that is unsettled in his trust in me. If a marriage is not built on a firm foundation, it will crumble.
I personally view a pre-nup as a crack in the foundation.
I completely agree. It's planning the divorce before you're even married.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 1:47:25 PM
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Prairiehiker
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I'm on the fence on this one. I'll explain later.
_____________________________
-------------------------------------
Psalm 40: 1 I waited patiently for the LORD;
he turned to me and heard my cry
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 6:49:12 PM
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Mollymouser
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From: california, land of the happy cows
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
So what would you think of a pre-nup that formalizes what we should be doing anyway?
Such as:
"The marriage will not be ended except for biblically valid reasons, that is, Adultery, abandonment or abuse. The person who breaks the marriage by commiting adultery or by abandonment or by chronic abuse forfeits all posessions and increase gained during the marriage. They forfeit custody of the children and pets as well. They leave the marriage with only what they brought into it."
I think in most states this prenuptial agreement isn't worth the paper it would be printed on. The court (and not the parents) get to determine custody/visitation arrangements in a divorce -- even if both parents want something different. The courts will make an independent determination based on the best interests of the children who are not, obviously, parties to the prenuptial contract.
Forefeiting all possessions? Including the clothes off their back? Money in their own retirement accounts? His or her birthday presents for the last 10 years? Cars? Work tools? Just not going to happen.
And do you really want a court of law determining precisely what IS, or isn't, a "biblically valid reason?" There's no court in the country who will touch THAT with 10-foot pole. Abuse? Physical abuse? Battery? Verbal abuse? Financial abuse? Emotional abuse? So ... one slap and your spouse forfeits ALL of their worldly possessions, the dog, the children, and their clothes? Would you want to marry someone who merely needs to make that ALLEGATION to clean you out?
If you don't completely trust your hypothetical spouse-to-be, don't marry her.
_____________________________
 MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT  PLEASE PRAY FOR MY DEPLOYED HUSBAND!
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 9:56:59 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hazel2
I have daughters and would advise them to leave a situation in which a man requires a prenup to marry. Divorce is messy and ugly ... as it should be!
That's just the problem. Divorce today is not messy. Someone decides they don't want to get married and walk into a judges office and bang, they're divorced! And the innocent partner is out of luck. Nothing they can do.
I don't believe in no fault divorce. I don't believe in divorce at all. So I was looking for some way to make sure that she did not believe in divorce.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 10:00:15 PM
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blueeyedgirl2
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quote:
I don't believe in no fault divorce. I don't believe in divorce at all. So I was looking for some way to make sure that she did not believe in divorce.
How about loving and respecting her so much that you trust her word that she's with you for life?
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 10:11:22 PM
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solo_soprano24
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Julie1955
I have no problem with having a pre-nup. I have some assets that were given to me as a gift, and it is my old age rocking chair money. Whatever assets he has are his, not mine; and whatever assets are mine, not his.
I feel that way, but I don't feel that what the OP said should be in a pre-nup. I do believe it's okay to have one though, if the couple wants one.
I'd sign one to protect myself, but it won't have all that "Biblically valid"/"forfeit possessions" stuff in it. Even if that person did something wrong to end the marriage (like cheating) I wouldn't try to keep at least partial custody from them (or at least visitation). If one person wants a divorce, whether you like it or not, they can divorce you. I think now the "innocent" party doesn't even have to consent/sign the papers. I mean, you can be a Christian who doesn't believe in divorce for ANY instance, and still end up divorced... so, it can happen.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/10/2009 10:33:16 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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I am totally against a prenup especially for Christians, its like saying that we dont trust God and dont trust our future spouse. To me its like saying that we may well get diovrced, and that means that we need to protect oursleves. When I got married (a second one for both if us) I had a small house and his wife had demanded everything, so he had no assets.. Now as far as I am concerned the house is ours and not mine.As far as I am concerned everything is ours and not 'mine' or 'his'.
neither of us would ever get divorced (our first divorces were for reasons that we could do nothing about)so why would we need one. I would never marry a man who asked for a prenup.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/11/2009 1:15:50 PM
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allisonbrett
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
Such as:
"The marriage will not be ended except for biblically valid reasons, that is, Adultery, abandonment or abuse. The person who breaks the marriage by commiting adultery or by abandonment or by chronic abuse forfeits all posessions and increase gained during the marriage. They forfeit custody of the children and pets as well. They leave the marriage with only what they brought into it."
(I state chronic abuse as any argument could be called abuse by someone looking for a way out)
Pre nup seems to plan on the "if and when you screw up" and I don't see that as Biblical. But then in our society even among Christians divorce is as common.
My question with such a pre nup clause is allowing mitigating factors into the adultry claim. IMO it's not fair to always solely blame the cheater the failure of the marriage. There are many times when the other spouse shares some of the responsible for the affair as the one who strayed (various forms of abuse, willful neglect, etc. ). There are very abusive, neglectful spouses that almost push their mate into the arms of another person by their actions or inactions. I know of one very specific couple this applies to.
I also have trouble with the pre-nups with time schedules attached. I know of one couple who had a pre-nup bt after 10 years she'd get much more money. He made sure to divorce her just prior to the 10 year anniversary to avoid having to pay her.
_____________________________
Allison
A work in progress so please be patient, God is still working on me. Ouch, it sure is painful!
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/11/2009 4:45:10 PM
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deermousie
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The feeling I get is that a pre-nup is the fall-back protection in case the spouses' morals fail.
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People died to give you the Bible in your language.
Read it. Eat it. Dwell in it. Rightly divide it. Live it.
Laugh, dance, praise your God, and go read some more. And God bless you.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/11/2009 4:47:14 PM
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slushie
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I agree with deermousie. No prenups for me.
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Testify to Love
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/11/2009 5:19:08 PM
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Above_All
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I understand where you are coming from John but in your case, she is your biological child and unless you prove yourself to be an unfit parent, you would have custody of her if there was a divorce. You just have to trust G-d on that one.
As far as everything else, it is only material and if both spouses worked together to earn those possessions (whether money or any other assets) then it is only fair to split them them. The moral breakdown of the marriage has nothing to do with the material breakdown of the marriage. When the marriage end it ends. What assets you have left should be split. You then rbuild yourself.
Prenups to me promote and teach fear more than anything else. The trust we place in G-d is in our faith. We don't need legal reassurance. We already have G-d's provisional assurance.
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Member of the "I used to be a Super Member Club"
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/11/2009 10:33:48 PM
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John_O
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Thank you ladies. Lots of good info here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett
Pre nup seems to plan on the "if and when you screw up" and I don't see that as Biblical. But then in our society even among Christians divorce is as common.
This is the problem. Among Christians divorce should be unheard of.
quote:
My question with such a pre nup clause is allowing mitigating factors into the adultry claim. IMO it's not fair to always solely blame the cheater the failure of the marriage. There are many times when the other spouse shares some of the responsible for the affair as the one who strayed (various forms of abuse, willful neglect, etc. ). There are very abusive, neglectful spouses that almost push their mate into the arms of another person by their actions or inactions. I know of one very specific couple this applies to.
There is never an excuse for adultery. Never! never! never! never! never!
If there are problems in the marriage then fix those problems. Cheating never fixes the problems. The only thing cheating does is make the cheater solely responsible for the death of the marriage. It may be very six prior to the adultery but the adultery kills it)
quote:
I also have trouble with the pre-nups with time schedules attached. I know of one couple who had a pre-nup bt after 10 years she'd get much more money. He made sure to divorce her just prior to the 10 year anniversary to avoid having to pay her.
Agreed
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/11/2009 11:14:47 PM
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Prairiehiker
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I used to be 100% pro prenup. Then I swung to the extreme opposite. Prenup is working out your divorce before you even get married. But now, I'm not so sure anymore.
If I didn't have a kid, it wouldn't matter much. Prenup would be out of my vocabulary. But with a child involve, it'd be a different story. It's not only the rebuilding part, but the ugliness of divorce that I want to minimize the effect on me and my child by having a prenup.
Christian marriages are made up of two sinful people. What do sinful people do? They sin. So, what happens if one of them turns against their faith? It's been known to happen...even to preachers. What happens if one cheats like King David did? He was a man after God's heart. What would I do? How would my decision affect my child?
Is it lack of trust in God or is it having godly wisdom. I don't know. I know I'll be giving this a lot of thought before I marry. I just found out that one of my friend is going through his second divorce because his wife decided she doesn't want to work at it anymore. It's her third marriage. She professes to be a Christian. She reads the bible daily, goes to church, prays....you know, displays all the qualities of being a Christian. He brought a lot of money into the marriage; she started a business while they were married. The business is now worth a few million dollars. Things are getting ugly. There's 10 kids between the two of them. Things like this happen even in Christian marriages. It shouldn't but it does. I've seen too many of it.
So, I don't know. My child needs to be protected and provided for in the event of my divorce. Perhaps, I shouldn't get married until she's on her own.
_____________________________
-------------------------------------
Psalm 40: 1 I waited patiently for the LORD;
he turned to me and heard my cry
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/11/2009 11:35:34 PM
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solo_soprano24
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quote:
Is it lack of trust in God or is it having godly wisdom. I don't know. I know I'll be giving this a lot of thought before I marry. I just found out that one of my friend is going through his second divorce because his wife decided she doesn't want to work at it anymore. It's her third marriage. She professes to be a Christian. She reads the bible daily, goes to church, prays....you know, displays all the qualities of being a Christian. He brought a lot of money into the marriage; she started a business while they were married. The business is now worth a few million dollars. Things are getting ugly. There's 10 kids between the two of them. Things like this happen even in Christian marriages. It shouldn't but it does. I've seen too many of it.
I feel similarly; you just said it a whole lot better. :)
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/12/2009 8:30:40 AM
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kd4hvz
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I have no problem with a pre-nup in and of itself. It would depend on the situation and wording.
We wear a seat belt in the car, and we buy fire insurance for our homes. Not because we are planing to get in an accident or planning to at some point burn our house down. We do it because we can't predict the future and because we can't control what others do. So with that mindset it is not planning to do anything, but rather protecting yourself from what is outside of your control. It is acknowledging that people do stupid things, and we want to protect ourselves should we find we have chosen a mate that chooses a path that is sinful.
I can also see a pre-nup as discouraging divorce, not planning for it. i.e. Making it harder to divorce, not easier to divorce. For example, if by choosing to divorce or having an affair, or whatever, you would contractually forfeit a large portion of your assets, I would think that someone would be much less willing to choose that path and to make it work.
I think it all depends on how it is written and the motive/goals behind it.
_____________________________
-Michael in beautiful Bedford, VA
[http://www.kd4hvz.com/]
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/12/2009 11:48:27 AM
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LivingParadox
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For 2 young persons starting out with nothing-- what's the point? Now if there is lopsided wealth that obviously can bring "temptation" into the picture, there is probably some wisdom in talking these things over prior to marriage -and getting them in writing one way or the other -- much depends on the age of the individuals.
There is also very sad, tragic situations where a spouse has been widowed have adult children -- basically each has had a full life prior to a later life second (third, etc) marriage. It simply keeps things simple what's yours is yours -- it has been a common thing for an older person to remarry and die after a short time --and without it, you are simply disregarding all other history. Motivation and goals as the previous poster said.
_____________________________
Psalms 63
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/12/2009 3:14:37 PM
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tz3
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I can see your point if one or both partners have a divorce in their past before and wish to have things in writing that would make sure that the other person would work at the marriage before just giving up. But really I would have to side with John_O on this one. the fact that they are even entertaining the what if question means there is a weakness there they are not taking responsability for and saying it isn't going to happen again. However, if you go into the marriage saying divorce is not an option then both people work on it and by that I mean work on it as you go not let things get out of hand and then decide to work on it.
However, I disagree that the person that cheated killed the marriage. Most of the time the marriage died long before cheating occured. The outward sign of sin is just the confirmation of what happened before. If that is the case and this may seem harsh, but usually both are at fault to some degree or another in creating the circumstances that lead up to the death of a marriage. I know there may be exceptions but for the most part it takes two to make it work and it takes two to kill it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kd4hvz
I have no problem with a pre-nup in and of itself. It would depend on the situation and wording.
We wear a seat belt in the car, and we buy fire insurance for our homes. Not because we are planing to get in an accident or planning to at some point burn our house down. We do it because we can't predict the future and because we can't control what others do. So with that mindset it is not planning to do anything, but rather protecting yourself from what is outside of your control. It is acknowledging that people do stupid things, and we want to protect ourselves should we find we have chosen a mate that chooses a path that is sinful.
I can also see a pre-nup as discouraging divorce, not planning for it. i.e. Making it harder to divorce, not easier to divorce. For example, if by choosing to divorce or having an affair, or whatever, you would contractually forfeit a large portion of your assets, I would think that someone would be much less willing to choose that path and to make it work.
I think it all depends on how it is written and the motive/goals behind it.
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