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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 12:00:28 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
Paul has already gone into that.
Yuh know, I am sure you did not know him any more than I did, in spite of your
familar reference and if you read my response to drmark, it is clear I was not
asking a question. Are you and drmark a tag team of some sort?
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 12:13:20 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
Much harm has been done to the church by people shoving doctrine to some back room somewhere not to be mentioned in Church unless absolutely necessary and then brought down to the lowest common denominator.
Hmmm....and equal or greater amounts of harm have been done by putting doctrine before people. Doctrine
never saved anyone. You can know absolutely no doctrine whatsoever and still be saved.
BTW, many people hold to and are quite fond of wrong doctrine. Doctrine is not in and of itself the truth.
quote:
One can not have a right relationship with God without knowing first and foremost who God is. Just because there are people that may know the right things but don't practice it is not a good enough reason to relegate doctrine to a lesser status.
Really? Jesus said if we have seen Him than we have seen the Father. Jesus represented God. No man has seen God at any time.
God sent His Son so that we can know Him. (God) So actually, you cannot know God before accepting Jesus.
Tell me, what is a 'right' relationship to you? Do you think it means knowing all there is to know and being doctrinally correct?
I can garantee that there is not one single human being on this earth who has all their 'doctrine' down perfect.
It is our heart that settles whether or not our relationship with God is 'right' and that goes for our human relationships also.
To state that it is doctrine that gives us 'right' relationship with God is not sound doctrine.
As far as people knowing, as you put it, "the right things" and not practicing it, that, is called sin. James 4:17
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 1:18:54 AM
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didymus101
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Love is of god, not of doctrine.
(jazzact)
This is a false division. Doctrine is not kind of secondary thing one can get along without. Too many people have been misled by believing that.
(sue)
Very good point Jazz.
Much harm has been done to the church by people shoving doctrine to some back room somewhere not to be mentioned in Church unless absolutely necessary and then brought down to the lowest common denominator.
This is getting to be beyond the pale. How can such a simple sentence lead to such gross distortion? This happens over and over. I have read that sentence to twenty separate individuals both at church and at the Christian Television station I work at, without any more instruction than, "what do you think this sentence is saying," and got back from all exactly what is says, without hesitation: love is infused by God and not the result of sound doctrine.
Both of you please re-read that sentence in bold, slowly and carefully, please, and tell me where it says to "shove doctrine in a backroom" or make it a "secondary thing." How in heaven's name did you come to those conclusions from that statement. It in no way says one is better or worse, first or second, superior or inferior. You tell me: is love of God, as it clearly states in scripture, or is it of doctrine?
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 1:22:49 AM
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sue244
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Yes it is sin. Never denied that. But one person sin does not relegate correct doctrine to the back room.
I should have added the qualifier "correct" doctrine to my last post but I did not think it was necessary but you showed me it was.
It has been a mystery to me since I was in high school why Christians are suppose to check their brains at the door and leave everything at a nice elementary level when talking about their faith. I have taught my 3rd and 4th grader at church words such as Sanctification, and Propitiation and Justification and they can give you the basic meaning of it and why it is important. And I applaud my pastor for not insulting his congregations intelligence by dumbing everything down.
And since going to a church that refuses to dumb down correct doctrine I have never seen a more loving and open and true to their word church. This church come closer then any I have been to to walking out their talk.
Now I realize that it is one experience and that doesn't weigh much to most people as well it shouldn't but no one will ever convince me you can have right practice before having right beliefs. Its the only way I have ever seen it work despite much claims to the contrary out there. And I think that's why Bible makes a big point over not forsaking the Apostles teaching, and not forgetting about correct doctrine.
That being said Brian McLaren has come out with who his god is and that is another good reason why we need to know God so that when makes a god in their own image it is obvious. Although I don't know how much more obvious McLaren could have made it since he says he would rather be an atheist then believe in the God most Christians believe in.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 1:29:09 AM
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sue244
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Didymus my statement was not really off of your statement about love. It was off of Jazz and based on what I have seen time and time again since I have been in high school.
You may not have seen doctrine relegated to the back room but I have. When I went to Bible college I had more support from my job then I did my old church. At my old church I was treated with disdain for daring to go and learn more about God. I think I heard it about 100 times, 'why are you going to Bible College, there is no value in that, leave that to the pastors to learn.' And I have had people tell me to my face that Doctrine is not important so I'm speaking from experience in real life.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 1:47:08 AM
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didymus101
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sue, what is more important to the function of your body, your head or your heart? A ridiculous question, of course, because you could not do without either one, each having a vital function. The head does not do the business of the heart and the heart does not do the business of the head, and both support the functioning of the other.
This analogy is what I have been saying all along about love and doctrine. I have tried to make it a point, because I see how some jump to conclusions, to state that doctrine is vital when I start speaking about love. Each simply has their rightful place in our relationship with God.
If you are saying you cannot have right orthopraxy without right orthodoxy, in effect you are going back under the law.
The Holy Spirit instructs us in everything. And where is the Holy Spirit? He is indwelling. Do you think he is capable of informing us how to act in a situation?
Love is nothing short of being of one spirit with God. If you are of one spirit with God, the law is written on your heart and you are willing to obey it.
For me, belief in a triune God is essential to faith, yet that does not get me up to do good works. Apples and oranges. I am not dismissing this sound doctrine by saying it is not responsible for good works.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 4:46:05 AM
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heremainsfaithful
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I admit I am somewhat of a doofus sometimes....but isn't it possible that God desires us to love Him and others AND know the truth? That they are not mutually exclusive? And maybe He isn't all that pleased when we waste a bunch of time playing "who's on first?" If I truly love the way GOD says love, then I MUST believe truth. And if Truth really is of utmost importance to me, then I must love. What's so hard but that?
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 8:33:15 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
I admit I am somewhat of a doofus sometimes....but isn't it possible that God desires us to love Him and others AND know the truth? That they are not mutually exclusive? And maybe He isn't all that pleased when we waste a bunch of time playing "who's on first?" If I truly love the way GOD says love, then I MUST believe truth. And if Truth really is of utmost importance to me, then I must love. What's so hard but that?
No one is saying they are mutually exclusive. Not at all. That would be ridiculous.
No one is playing who's on first. I think you misunderstand. God IS truth, so how could we leave that out? But He
IS love. He is Holy in His love and truth. We are discussing doctrine; not truth. They are not the same
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 8:37:33 AM
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solarflare
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1. rule or principle: a rule or principle that forms the basis of a belief, theory, or policy
2. ideas taught as truth: a body of ideas, particularly in religion, taught to people as truthful or correct
Above is a dictionary def for doctrine. Where do you see that doctrine is by its nature truthful? Only
God is true. People make mistakes in their doctrine all the time which is why it must be tempered
by love and not used to hit people over the head with.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 9:33:16 AM
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sue244
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But there is still correct Doctrine.
Acts 2:42, 13:12
Rom 6:17, 16:17
1 Tim 4:6, 13, 16
2 Tim 3:16, 4:2
Titus 2:1, 7
of course there is also false doctrine and for the sake of time and not being redundant when I'm writing if I use the word doctrine I'm speaking of correct doctrine and if I'm talking about false teachings I wills say false teachings.
Also I as thinking that when you go through any of Paul's writings he front loads his letter with Doctrine and then there is this point where he goes then goes therefore because of all this (doctrine I just laid out) do this, this, this, this and this. And its at the back of his letters where we get the commands.
so it looks to me that even Paul understood that Orthodoxy comes before Orthopraxy.
\quote:
I think part of the prob here may be your generalizing....all Christians do not check their brains at the door.
Well I did say that this was from my experience which I know is not worth much. But I get what you mean. I should have added most in my experience. I'll try to remember that.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 10:42:31 AM
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didymus101
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1John4:16 defines love as being of one spirit with God and nothing less. And how do we know we dwell in love of God (which is the sign we have overcome the world, which is how we will have no fear on judgment day, which is to be as Christ was in the world)? Love of our brother. All the sound doctrine and right beliefs are useless without the love of God and equally our brother (neighbor, enemy).
(Many will read that above paragraph as saying throw out doctrine, check your brain at the door, or just being good is good enough. The heart of a Christian positioned in Christ supplies the right spirit to doctrine, as the heart in our body supplies life-giving blood to the brain. Doctrine cannot stand on its own, is not sound, right, or correct, without this infusion of spirit. Where so many problems arise (and "problems" is an understatement if you look at the history of oppression and war between denominations within the church) is standing on doctrine, trusting what we think of as the truth and not in truth itself, Jesus Christ. Love is the whole purpose of truth.)
Christ is the one source for this love. We must accept Christ to have this love of God we are to share with all the world, for they are all made in His image and likeness. No exceptions. (And that means liberals, Iraqis, Muslims, or any other "Samaritan" of our own making.)
Sound doctrine, what is essential, points out the path to this love. The doctrine is not knowing God, love is knowing God; just as directions for making a cake is not a cake.
If we have this love we have overcome the world and thus delight in doing God's will. "Overcoming the world" is our cross, dying to self, and it is love that makes this "burden" light and supplies "the fullness of life."
Sue, to say it is necessary for one to have sound orthodoxy to perform right orthopraxy is to exclude the working of the Holy Spirit. Good works come from the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit "both to will and to do." Faith in and love of God allows the father to do the works, as Jesus allowed throughout his life.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 11:02:58 AM
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sue244
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quote:
Sue, to say it is necessary for one to have sound orthodoxy to perform right orthopraxy is to exclude the working of the Holy Spirit. Good works come from the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit "both to will and to do." Faith in and love of God allows the father to do the works, as Jesus allowed throughout his life.
No where Did I say that this excludes God's working. Now who's reading a stuff into a Statement.
Salvation is though Faith Alone through Christ Alone through Grace Alone. I have never denied that basic fact of Christianity. And that is a hill I would die on. No one is good enough to go to heaven. The law points that out to us, is shows us how depraved we are and that the only thing we can do is throw our selves to the Mercy of God.
And the more I have learned and study both who God is and what I am, the more I am amazed and thankful the God would save a Wretch Like Me. And the more amazed I am at Him saving a Wretch like me the more I want live for Him.
Didymus I'm used to your barbs and have traded a few (or more) with you before, but this was uncalled for because you just implied that I deny Salvation though Faith and Grace alone which is an essential doctrine. Although I'm thankful you at least didn't call me aberrant so thank you for that.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 11:17:47 AM
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stampinlady
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There's no such thing as a "new christianity." It's Satan way of dividing the church. Jesus said, 'if you love me you will keep my commandments." How hard is that to understand??
I do think that there's a move to "save the world." If one reads their bible one will know that this just isn't gonna happen.
_____________________________
Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 11:20:12 AM
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sue244
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You are so right. What I see in the Emergent church is this move to make this world just a better world to go to hell from. Under the guise of loving, they have put the focus on the temporal to the exclusion of the eternal and are doing people no service.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 1:10:17 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
Yuh know, I am sure you did not know him any more than I did, in spite of your
familar reference
I referenced what Paul wrote about himself. If you think that is not relevant to the point you were making, you may say so. I hardly see where what I referenced should be subject to your attempt at sarcasm, though.
quote:
Are you and drmark a tag team of some sort?
We have similar thoughts on this subject, just as you have similar thoughts with others here. What are you implying?
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 1:18:33 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
Sue, to say it is necessary for one to have sound orthodoxy to perform right orthopraxy is to exclude the working of the Holy Spirit.
Upon what basis is this implied? Does not the Spirit have as much to do with right beliefs as with right actions?
quote:
Sound doctrine, what is essential, points out the path to this love.
This seems very much like the point I have been trying to make--sound doctrine is essential, so that one may know how love rightly. It is one of the sins of the emergent church, that they have tried to make 'love', what they call orthopraxy, the main thing, while essentially divorcing it from right beliefs, orthodoxy. But when you look at what they consider orthopraxy, you can see how it has little if anything to do with biblical love, save in a surface way.
The message of the church to the unbeliever is to repent and believe in Christ, which implies that some level of right belief is essential. But we are "saved to do good works". Our works do not save us, but they do add weight to the testimony that we are saved.
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 1:42:43 PM
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MrFribbles
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Out of curiosity - how many of those who are attacking the emergent movement have attended an emergent church service?
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 2:28:01 PM
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didymus101
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sue, I have thrown no barbs at you. I do not attack people. There is not a person in this forum I have ever personally insulted, despite being personally attacked and my faith defamed almost on a daily basis. To say that I have thrown barbs at you is erroneous.
You gave a cheer in another thread for vile things said against me. This has happened on a number of occasions. Had the situation been reversed, I would have cautioned the poster.
We see it differently. You say, "...sound doctrine is essential, so that one may know how {to} love rightly." I say sound doctrine does not teach us how to love rightly, that love is being of one spirit with God; it is not learned but infused through the Holy Spirit. I am not reading into what you said, I simply see it differently. I can cite numerous scripture, as I already have, to support my view. Please give one verse that says doctrine teaches us how to love rightly. If indeed it is love, it is of necessity "rightly" and nothing less.
I came truly to Christ at seven, after an experience I had drowning in the surf of Rockaway Beach. It was transforming. My whole family noticed the difference in how I behaved. Doctrine did not teach me that. I had found the love of Jesus and that made the difference. Which is not to say that being sound in doctrine later in my life was unnecessary.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 2:28:13 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Out of curiosity - how many of those who are attacking the emergent movement have attended an emergent church service?
Having read a few books by the "Leaders" of the emergent movement there is no need to attend an emergent service.
No more than I would attend a Unitarian service, or a satanic service.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 2:54:22 PM
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didymus101
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Working with addicts and alcoholics over the past twenty-five years, I would be hard pressed to find one out of a thousand who accepted Christ for the "right reasons" or were convinced by sound doctrine. It was the foxhole prayer: "Lord, get me out of this one." Desperation, fear, loneliness, disillusionment, serious health or legal problems, and the desire to get possessions back were the compelling factors. To me, Jesus doesn't mind. He knows the carnal man still has many strongholds. Faith the size of an atom is acceptable to Him.
Yet if this person does not get into action and study the word, pray and fast, and continually open to the Holy Spirit's guidance and direction, the results are nil. My experience with this group of people has shown me over and over that acting their way into right thinking, not thinking their way into right action, is what quickly strengthens their faith.
We are not to lean on our own understanding. Does this mean check our brain at the door? Yes and no. It is surrendering our thoughts and ways to be transformed by the word through the renewing of our mind. It is a complete abandon to His divine providence. What I think about God is nothing. What I believe about God is nothing. It is full submission to His will that matters. We only have the eyes to see by, in, and through Christ, not by our reason or critical intellect. Our reason is informed by God, used to discern soul from spirit.
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 3:36:25 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Having read a few books by the "Leaders" of the emergent movement there is no need to attend an emergent service.
If I had never attended a service from your denomination, but read the material of your "leaders," would you feel I was justified in attacking your denomination?
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RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/20/2010 4:04:06 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Having read a few books by the "Leaders" of the emergent movement there is no need to attend an emergent service.
If I had never attended a service from your denomination, but read the material of your "leaders," would you feel I was justified in attacking your denomination?
If the writings of my Denomination's leaders was as unScriputural and heretical as the Emergent's then yea, you would.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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