RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" and other questions and comments
View related threads:
(in this forum
| in all forums)
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/18/2010 11:17:07 AM
|
|
|
Elena1030
Posts: 2961
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnD70X7
quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
I can come back with a secondary source that better explains what I've been taught. But I don't have time at the moment.
Fine. I'll be happy to discuss it when you have the time. Suffice it to say... unless I am wrong (and I never proceed from the assumption that I am never wrong) and unless I am wrong... you may find that what you thought that biblical source was saying (given the scriptures I have quoted to now consider) weren't saying quite what you thought they were before... and when that happens to us all it is a blessed moment where the Holy Spirit our Tutor breaks through our preconceived notions... preconceived notions which (sadly) too many Church doctrines are based on.
Good points.
Though I doubt I'll change my mind. 
I too am open to discussing it with you and exploring this topic. But I think we'll need to start a new thread.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnD70X7
quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
From scripture we learn that Jesus (preincarnate) alone created all things quote:
I supplied the scriptures to back up my claim.
Nice try, John, but all the verses you gave clearly indicate that God created BY the Second Person of the Trinity, not from or of Christ. Christ was the agency by which the Father created. Christ did NOT ALONE create all things! That statement would represent Modalistic heresy if you truly believed it.
^^^^^ what drmark said
I hope after you've read just what drmark said (in light of what I have written and also in how I answered his false charges against me) you will reconsider your echoing and lauding his contrived statement.
Well, I've not delved enough into the evidence on both sides nor researched Modalism enough to fully understand its definition and tenets... so, yes, I do say that I don't know enough to conclude that you are a heretic, John.
I do think that drmark and I have similar doctrinal stances, though, about the participation of all three Persons of the Trinity in creation. That's what I was pointing to.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For the moment... going with your premise... I am intrigued by the idea that Jesus would feel responsible ... and thus sorta by proxy feel "guilty" about our sins. Perhaps you could elaborate on that. (Not about creation, of course, since we're already gonna cover that elsewhere.  )
Does that mean Jesus feels regret?
_____________________________
"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
|
|
|
|
|
RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/18/2010 11:24:39 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5613
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Well, I've not delved enough into the evidence on both sides nor researched Modalism enough to fully understand its definition and tenets... so, yes, I do say that I don't know enough to conclude that you are a heretic, John. Just for clarification, I have never called JohnD70 a heretic. I suggested that the concept that the Second Person of the Godhead alone created all things may be a form of Modalism.
quote:
I do think that drmark and I have similar doctrinal stances, though, about the participation of all three Persons of the Trinity in creation. That's what I was pointing to. Amen, Elena!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/18/2010 8:34:41 PM
|
|
|
JohnD70X7
Posts: 100
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline
|
Boy, talk about nice tries...
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
John, this will be my last post on this issue because it is not really related to the OP, in my opinion. There are numerous references throughout the OT that clearly illustrate the Lord seated on His Throne.
Surely you know, drmark, Jesus claims to be YHVH (the LORD)?
John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (see Exodus 3:13-15).
And the anthropomorphism of sitting on a throne applies to a Spirit how? Physically sitting on a literal throne? And you presume to understand the throne room of God when you overlooked Jesus has a throne...
Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
So... since you did not know Jesus is the Lord YHVH (as is the Father and the Holy Spirit btw hence THE name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19... think of it as a surname all three persons of the trinity have... this is why I often use the example of a family to help explain the concept of the Trinity...
but, since you did not know this or that Jesus has a throne (highlighted your own statement in green below) ... how can you presume to understand who and which throne is being spoken of in the Old Testament or the New with regards to who is the Creator?
About the Son the Apostle Paul wrote:
Colossians 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
St John writes in Revelation that He Who sits on the Throne created all things - Rev 4:11. Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Godhead, is at the right hand of the Father - Mark 16:19, Acts 7:55, Rom 8:34, Hebr 10:12, etc. Thus it is abundantly clear that God the Father Who sits on the Throne created all things, and NOT God the Son who is at the right hand of the Father.
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/18/2010 8:58:20 PM
|
|
|
JohnD70X7
Posts: 100
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
Good points.
Though I doubt I'll change my mind.
I too am open to discussing it with you and exploring this topic. But I think we'll need to start a new thread.
Ok. I would not expect you to just throw in with the first round of discussion anyway... at least not until t\you did your own investigations in the scriptures like the Bereans.
quote:
Well, I've not delved enough into the evidence on both sides nor researched Modalism enough to fully understand its definition and tenets... so, yes, I do say that I don't know enough to conclude that you are a heretic, John.
I do think that drmark and I have similar doctrinal stances, though, about the participation of all three Persons of the Trinity in creation. That's what I was pointing to.
Modalism as I answered drmark has nothing at all to do with this discussion anymore than squeezing the Charmin does. It was merely an evasion on his part or a hysterical reaction. Sabelianism / Modalisim is another way of saying oneness theology where Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Son and Jesus is the Holy Spirit in three distinct modes.... championed by what I classify as Christian cults like Apostolic, United Pentecostal, Oneness Pentecostal...
I believe and teach the Trinity because it is truth as evident in the scriptures. And in fact what I am saying in this thread that there are not only distinct three persons in the Godhead but three are unique ministries to each that the other two do not have is more PRO-Trinitarian evidence than to sit back and declare with no scriptural proof that all three had a hand in creation... a Modalist would lick their chops over an opportunity like that to explain how their (errant) theology believes the same thing...
The Father is the ultimate authority (apparently by arrangement since God the Word [Jesus] is equal with him in nature [John 5:18, Philippians 2:6] and John 14:28 refers to position rather than nature). His only creation is the body of the Christ (John 1:14, Hebrews 10:5-7, Hebrews 1:5-7)
The Son (preincarnate) Created all things created (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-18, Isaiah 44:24)... he also became a man and died to pay for human sin (1 John 2:2) rose the third day ascended to heaven and will return to save the remnant of Israel and establish his throne on earth for the millennial reign.
The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible (2 Peter 1:20-21) the leader of us into all truth (John 16:13) he is the other counselor of the same kind sent into the world in Christ's stead until he returns... he is the indwelling Spirit of God in the believer.
If you wish, we can discuss this in another thread.
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
