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separation of church and state - 2/20/2010 10:18:25 PM
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dboe
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I am not posting this as a question of, should there be a separation, because I think there should be and don't want to discuss that. My question is, why does the religious right seem to be so focused on undoing it? My favorite example is how they get so involved politically with trying to raise candidates who are anti-abortion, get anti-abortion laws passed, etc. Another good one is the prayer in schools thing versus a moment of silence (which would be more equal for people of all faiths). And their constant claims that christianity is being taken out of legal institutes (no ten commandments in courthouses, etc). What I don't understand basically is why Christians seem to get so upset over separation of church and state, (teaching creation theory in schools, etc). Why do they want to try to legislate morality and see everything as an attack whereas there are many people of different faiths and our nation was founded on religious freedom. Yet we seem to want a legislated Christian nation somehow. Why are Christians not content with making waves in the world spiritually? Why is it not acceptable to have relicas of ALL known religions in a courthouse, displayed on the walls proudly as a testimony to the fact that that is what we are founded on as a nation (freedom to practice one's own religion). Why do we not see a moment of silence rather than calling it a prayer as a testimony to that freedom, a freedom which also gives us the ability to practice our own religion when and how we choose? How would Christians feel if instead of creation theory being taught in schools (which christians think should be taught), the only thing allowed to be taught was evolution and how Muslims believed the world came into being. But yet Christians seem to think that because there are more of us, of course creation theory should be taught, of course the ten commandments should be displayed, etc.
What if things were switched up a bit in this nation? That is how Muslims feel which live here, probably. That is why we have the separation. Enough ranting. Am I incorrect totally that Christians seem to want to legislate morality and intermesh christianity with common laws and works of the state? And if so, why, and why not do things spiritually and win converts on an individual basis?
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/20/2010 11:04:55 PM
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bolt.
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As an outside of America opinion, I think it's fair enough that people always behave politically in keeping with their own values. In the case of Christians, of course our values are defined by our faith. That just makes perfect sense.
Most Christians believe that taking the life of a child in utero is not just a sin (something Christians should not do for spiritual reasons) but they believe that it is the ending of a life of a human being that had a beauty and a dignity and value before somebody assured somebody else that nobody minded if they ended his or her existence. Raising up anti-abortion candidates is about keeping those people from getting killed (or at least that it should happen less frequently). It is a moral act that can be accomplished politically as well as personally, so why should we not try every way that might be effective?
Prayer in schools is also seen as a life-saving issue -- in a very different sense. Most Christians believe that those who do not knowingly and willfully place their faith in Jesus will face death in either an eternally painful or a extremely final way... whereas there is another option, that Jesus can bring us into His eternal life. Obviously, it's only compassionate that we should want the better option to happen to people? So, sure, it's not exactly egalitarian to pray Christian prayers in schools, but some consider that value to be less important than the possibility that school children should have positive re-enforcement for choosing the only faith that actually offers post-earthly hope that we consider real. And we really do consider it real, and we really do consider it the only hope.
As for the symbolism of Christian objects being removed from public buildings, that's fair to criticize. They are only objects after all. However, the issue that is really being objected to is the removal of God either as a guiding force for justice, and/or as an authority over the state. God as an authority over the state (insofar as leaders and judges accept it) is supposed to be a form of accountability for their actions and a check on their absolute power. Most Christians do not believe that fallen people have the capacity to do these things well without accountability. Further, most Christians consider God to be ultimately wise -- much wiser than judges or political leaders. So trying to do that job while ignoring His revelation just seems pretty stupid... fraught with unforeseen circumstances and likely to flush your country down the toilet.
Evolution in schools is less of a moral issue, and more of a sense of teaching what is misguided... if you see my previous point, that most Christians consider God to be ultimately wise, and that ignoring His revelation in favour of a scientific model that may-well seem to fit the data... also pretty stupid. And it's galling to see kids taught stupidity in a place of education, whereas it would at least be reasonable to teach them that there is also plenty of evidence that some kind of design seems likely, in order that we got such an amazing resultant world. I don't think, personally, that the Biblical account belongs in an science discussion (it is a religious text written for a religious purpose), but 'the watchmaker' argument of intelligent design has merit.
I hope these motives make more sense to you now. When you try to understand, just try to wrap your mind around the idea that we are not just trying to accomplish things... we really think the doctrine of our faith are the truths of reality. That should help.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/21/2010 7:34:20 AM
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rcjames
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In respect to religion the First Amendment states;
quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Many Americans are upset because the government seems to be doing a lot to prohibit the free exercise of our Faith; of which the First Amendment forbids.
Thanks
RC
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/21/2010 9:30:51 AM
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heremainsfaithful
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If you look at objective and accurate research on the history and research of separation of church and state (all mine is hard copy but I will try to find links) the primary focus was to keep the STATE out of the CHURCH. But those of a certain slant has reversed the idea mainly to restrict Judeo-Christian values. Those are the facts supported by the data of the vast majority of court cases, etc. brought forth over the past several decades.
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Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
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Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/21/2010 10:39:32 AM
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KaptZ
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The important thing to remember is that not everyone is in agreement, even Christians, about a whole host of topics.
As long as we keep gov't out of religious affairs, and vice versa the more ALL of our freedoms, religious among them, will be protected.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/21/2010 1:46:19 PM
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lemon_sorbet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
The important thing to remember is that not everyone is in agreement, even Christians, about a whole host of topics.
As long as we keep gov't out of religious affairs, and vice versa the more ALL of our freedoms, religious among them, will be protected.
I agree, KaptZ.
As for the OP, I think this is a good question, and I agree with your examples..except the first one. Abortion is an issue that is not directly related to religion, although many religious people are pro-life. For example, I am an atheist yet am strongly pro-life. Just my two cents...
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/21/2010 4:19:38 PM
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dboe
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I like KaptZ response about our liberties being protected if we keep the Govt out of church affairs and vice versa
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/22/2010 9:38:02 AM
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PastorSteveMT
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Agree 100% with HRF,
The idea behind seperation was NOT to keep the church out the government...but rather, to keep the government OUT of the church.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/22/2010 2:05:31 PM
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Sophie11
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How do you keep the morals of the church out of government?
It seems most of our laws can be traced to the Bible somehow. Do you propose eliminating all laws that coincide with Christian beliefs?
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/22/2010 3:31:47 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorSteveMT
Agree 100% with HRF,
The idea behind seperation was NOT to keep the church out the government...but rather, to keep the government OUT of the church.
I agree. Anyone who has studied English and, then, American history should know that. They may not like it, but they should know it.
They other common lie is that you can't legislate morality.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/22/2010 10:00:58 PM
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relady
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quote:
The idea behind seperation was NOT to keep the church out the government.. I disagree. The framers came from countries where the church WAS the government and they wanted no more part of that. Separation going BOTH ways allows people freedom of religion AND keeps the church from gaining too much governmental power. It was designed that way, and it was good.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/23/2010 8:07:58 AM
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heremainsfaithful
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When 5th graders are sent home for inviting their friends to a revival pizza party at church (yes, this happened), then government has overstepped its bounds. That is not the point of separation of church and state. A very VERY vocal minority have made it their mission to stamp out God as much as possible from the school especially. That is not alarmist. That is observable fact. And it's wrong. I'm not talking about teachers passing out evangelistic tracts here. Anybody with a brain knows that that violates separation of church and state. But when I change my Christmas program to a holiday program, and now to a "Winter" program just in case there are kids who celebrate no holidays, then we have gotten ridiculous. And when churches lose privileges they once had based solely on the doctrine they teach, then something is very very wrong.
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/23/2010 10:03:01 AM
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stampinlady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
The idea behind seperation was NOT to keep the church out the government.. I disagree. The framers came from countries where the church WAS the government and they wanted no more part of that. Separation going BOTH ways allows people freedom of religion AND keeps the church from gaining too much governmental power. It was designed that way, and it was good.
That's my thinking too, Relady.
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There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/23/2010 10:18:21 AM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
The idea behind seperation was NOT to keep the church out the government.. I disagree. The framers came from countries where the church WAS the government and they wanted no more part of that. Separation going BOTH ways allows people freedom of religion AND keeps the church from gaining too much governmental power. It was designed that way, and it was good.
Many of the framers were deeply religious men. They did not envision a country without any religious roots or references in government.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/23/2010 10:24:14 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
The idea behind seperation was NOT to keep the church out the government.. I disagree. The framers came from countries where the church WAS the government and they wanted no more part of that. Separation going BOTH ways allows people freedom of religion AND keeps the church from gaining too much governmental power. It was designed that way, and it was good.
No, it was from a country where taxes were collected from everyone to support the state church. It would be like if this country designated, say, the Methodist Church as the state church and YOU and everybody else, no matter what denomination they belonged to, payed taxes that goes only to that church.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/23/2010 4:14:32 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
When 5th graders are sent home for inviting their friends to a revival pizza party at church (yes, this happened), then government has overstepped its bounds. That is not the point of separation of church and state. A very VERY vocal minority have made it their mission to stamp out God as much as possible from the school especially. That is not alarmist. That is observable fact. And it's wrong. I'm not talking about teachers passing out evangelistic tracts here. Anybody with a brain knows that that violates separation of church and state. But when I change my Christmas program to a holiday program, and now to a "Winter" program just in case there are kids who celebrate no holidays, then we have gotten ridiculous. And when churches lose privileges they once had based solely on the doctrine they teach, then something is very very wrong.
And every time something ridiculous happens and gets challenged, it gets reversed.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/24/2010 12:40:32 AM
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relady
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quote:
Many of the framers were deeply religious men. They did not envision a country without any religious roots or references in government. Oh good grief. No where did I say that we should be a country without ANY religious roots or references in government. WHAT I SAID WAS....they didn't want TOO MUCH church influence in government and visa versa. Please try not to twist and turn and make inferences where there are none. Sheesh.
quote:
No, it was from a country where taxes were collected from everyone to support the state church. It would be like if this country designated, say, the Methodist Church as the state church and YOU and everybody else, no matter what denomination they belonged to, payed taxes that goes only to that church.
Which originated in the church itself having waaaay too much political power. And in some cases it went even further than that, like people were jailed and killed for not having the "correct" religion, which was designated by the King who was overly influenced by one church or another. In any case, having too much organized religion exerting political influence is bad. The founders thought so, and I agree.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/24/2010 12:53:52 AM
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dboe
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To heremainsfaithful, I think that is a violation of the kids right to free speech right? That does not seem a violation of church and state if it is a minor. For a teacher it would be inappropriate but for a child, I am really surprised he was sent home. But schools have done some crazy things lately (sending home computers with kids that could be monitored by the school if the screen is on? Did you read that headline? Can we say 1984? Oh and that district went so far as to discipline the kid at school for bad behavior at home that the district was basically, spying on! Like any moron with a pea brain should think thats not a really good idea, you know? I am not making that one up either it was in the news. I dont think that kid was out of line at all for inviting a friend to something so positive. And no problem during school either (as long as he wasnt talking during a lecture or when a teacher was talking I guess), but like at lunch or freeplay? Seems like fair game to me. Yeah that crosses the line way too far in the other direction. Guess I want a Utopia of seperation and tolerance at the same time that will not exist, actually I am far more for teaching many cultures and religions as that is part of culture and history in school, but I guess the problem is it is hard to decide time allotments, or leaving out obscure religions, etc. It's just a mess... Poor kid though I hope he was able to invite that friend at least on his own time :(
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/24/2010 6:12:06 AM
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heremainsfaithful
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Actually dboe, you touched on a wellspring that I have discovered. Since I am a music teacher, the dreaded "Winter Program" falls to me. So how do I honor those traditional carols or spirituals we all love? Simple. We sing about Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, plain old winter.....So when I do Silent Night in German, Go Tell it On the Mountain, or even Amy Grant's Emmanuel, nobody complains. They love it. So I can die on the "Christmas Carol Hill" and not do any holiday songs. Or I can try to explore them all, and still get my "Jesus Fix" - hee hee. I have never had anyone of an agnostic or atheist persuasion say anything negative. They love the songs I pick. The only person I have ever had complain was one mom who was offended that I sang a Hanukkah song and demanded to know if any of our student even celebrated Hanukkah. I politely told her that two did, and that I wanted them to be able to sing about their traditions just like I wanted my own kids to be able to sing about Christmas. She sputtered a little then walked away. Her kids didn't stay in public school for very long...and none of us were too sad about that.
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/24/2010 8:06:31 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 628
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
Many of the framers were deeply religious men. They did not envision a country without any religious roots or references in government. Oh good grief. No where did I say that we should be a country without ANY religious roots or references in government. WHAT I SAID WAS....they didn't want TOO MUCH church influence in government and visa versa. Please try not to twist and turn and make inferences where there are none. Sheesh.
Um, I never said you said that relady. LOL. So defensive....
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RE: separation of church and state - 2/24/2010 10:23:04 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
...In any case, having too much organized religion exerting political influence is bad....
And a faith that doesn't impact every area of one's life isn't worth a wooden nickel.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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I am anti-murder for the born, and anti-murder for the unborn. I think killing your (general "your") neighbor should be illegal, and I also think killing your baby should be illegal, because I see no moral difference between the life of your 25 year old neighbor and the life of an unborn baby. 
more, IMHO.
