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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 11:28:27 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
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Hi Bob,
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Marv, I’ve always considered the seals, trumpets and bowls to be sequential and that the trumpets were the beginning of the wrath of God. There has always been one verse that was a stumbling block and that was Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. When does this wrath occur…at the end of the second woe.
We are never told that the trumpets are the actual wrath of God but we are told that the bowls are the wrath of God; we are told that that wrath comes with the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:15). We assume that the trumpets follow the opening of the 6th seal because of the sequence of the verses but Revelation has many false leads when viewed sequential.
I really see nothing that would prevent the 5th seal overlapping the trumpets and that the 6th seal would occur at the same time of the sounding of the 7th trumpet (or very close), which brings about the wrath of the bowls.
In Messiah,
Bob
Let me cover the trumps and the vials first. As you mention they are sequential, using just Revelation it can be determined that the last 3 trumps are called woes, The 1st woe is said to the 5th trump and it lasts for a total of 5 months, the 2nd woe starts at the end of the 1st and the 2nd ends just prior to the sound of the 7th trump. One of the things that happens during that 2nd woe is the Beast from the Pit kills the two witnesses, another thing that is established is when the 2nd woe is over then that same Beast is going to be destroyed by Christ. Since Christ arrives in Jerusalem first that is where the claiming of the Earth will start. The destruction of the Beast is part of that event so the 42 months (1260 days) of the Beast started when this verse is manifest.
Re:9:11:
And they had a king over them,
which is the angel of the bottomless pit,
whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon,
but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
I agree with you that the vials is the wrath of God that eliminates everything that God would consider an abomination. Prior to that is Satan's wrath on mankind and that includes a 3 1/2 year period that is just prior to Christ wrath. Tribulation is the first two woes, great tribulation is only the final woe. That wrath is trumps 5 % 6 and prior to them are events that are prophesied to happen. The coals from the alter is the first event 'after the seals'. The seals are only a list of events that Revelation covers. They cover from when God allows the end-times to begin the final process that results in the Earth belonging to the Kingdom of Heaven by way of a war.
seal 1 -coals cast to the earth is also the time the ones to be sealed by God in Re:7 are sealed. That is accomplished by the time the 1st trump sounds. This is the first step in the actual final set of prophecies about Christ's coming as King. The coals are the prayers of the Saints.
The 1st four trumps result in seal 2 (sword of the Nations being used against the people it was meant to protect), seal 3 is a dramatic change in how food is distributed, those 'hired' get food, the ones with 'no hire' will die of starvation, it will not be a small number but it does have a limit set by God.
seal 4 is a reference to both the 5th and 6th trumps, death and hell is what the world will experience under Satan and the Beast and the False Prophet and the Armies of the 10 Kingdoms.
seal 5 is referencing the death of the two witnesses. Their resurrection marks the time where people belonging to God cease to be in any danger from any quarter.
seal 6 is when the actual rewards are first handed out, if Christ is standing on the earth (for the next 1,000 years) where is anybody going to be 'raptured' to?
seal 7 is a half-hour of silence, the end of that 1/2 hour should be when these words from Re:16 are spoken "It is done."
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 12:56:08 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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I'm going to put the passages from the Olivet Discourse in parallel with Revelation 6 AGAIN, so hopefully people will finally begin to get what's happening here:
quote:
I watched as the lamb opened the sixth seal. A powerful earthquake struck.
The sun turned as black as sackcloth made of hair. The full moon turned as red as blood. (the sun will turn dark, the moon will not give light [Matt.24], the sun will turn dark, the moon will not give light [Mark 13], Miraculous signs will occur in the sun, moon, and stars [Luke 21].)
The stars fell from the sky to the earth like figs dropping from a fig tree when it is shaken by a strong wind. The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up. (the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the universe will be shaken. [Matt. 24], the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the universe will be shaken. [Mark 13], Indeed, the powers of the universe will be shaken. [Luke 21].)
Every mountain and island was moved from its place. (The nations of the earth will be deeply troubled and confused because of the roaring and tossing of the sea. [Luke 21].)
Then the kings of the earth, the important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and all the slaves and free people hid themselves in caves and among the rocks in the mountains.
They said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the anger of the lamb, because the frightening day of their anger has come, and who is able to endure it?”
All the people on earth will cry in agony...[Matt.24]
People will faint as they fearfully wait for what will happen to the world. [Luke 21].
Revelation 6:12-17 (GW)
So why are people crying in agony, fainting, and calling for the mountains to fall on them and hide them? The answer is provided in Matthew, Mark, and Luke:
quote:
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. All the people on earth will cry in agony when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky with power and great glory. [Matt. 24].
“Then people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory." [Mark 13].
“Then people will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [Luke 21].
The coming of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse is the SAME event as prophesied in Revelation 6 and the opening of the 6th Seal! And what's the final proof of this???
quote:
He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and from every direction under the sky, they will gather those whom God has chosen. [Matt. 24]
He will send out his angels, and from every direction under the sky, they will gather those whom God has chosen. [Mark 13].
“When these things begin to happen, stand with confidence! The time when you will be set free is near.” [Luke 21].
What is the result of this event? Look at the 6th Seal again:
quote:
Revelation 7:9-10 (GW)
After these things I saw a large crowd from every nation, tribe, people, and language. No one was able to count how many people there were. They were standing in front of the throne and the lamb. They were wearing white robes, holding palm branches in their hands, and crying out in a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the lamb!”
Revelation 7:13-14 (GW)
One of the leaders asked me, “Who are these people wearing white robes, and where did they come from?” I answered him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who are coming out of the terrible suffering. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
The Greek word used for "suffering" (thlipsis) in Revelation 7 is the SAME GREEK WORD USED IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE!!!
The coming of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse is the same event mentioned here:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (GW)
The Lord will come from heaven with a command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet {call} of God. First, the dead who believed in Christ will come back to life.
Then, together with them, we who are still alive will be taken in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
See how these all fit together???
The Lord will come from heaven (the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky) He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call (the trumpet {call} of God), and from every direction under the sky (from every nation, tribe, people, and language. Rev. 7) they will gather those whom God has chosen: (the people who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. Rev. 7).
The Olivet Discourse, the 6th Seal (Rev 6 & 7) and Paul, writing to the Thessalonians and Corinthians are all describing the Rapture of the Church!
The Second Coming of Christ doesn't happen until Revelation 19! When He appears that time, He comes riding on a white horse with the armies of heaven with Him to save Israel and establish His millennial kingdom!
But this harmonization of the OD, 6th Seal, and Paul is only possible IF you're willing to view the first five seals as being open NOW! If you try to fit them into "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), you end up with all kinds of weird doctrine that is neither logical nor scriptural!
It simply can't be any plainer than that!
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/4/2010 1:13:23 PM >
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 1:04:24 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
The 6th Seal does not come after the 7th Trumpet. I have never said this in any of my posts that it was.
Yes, you did. Read post 71 again!
quote:
Your error is believing that the Rapture is the 6th Seal, and also being describe in Matt 24. which it is not. The 6th Seal is not being described in Matt 24. The two are totally separate events.
Marv,
I've tried to keep this cordial and in good spirits, but seriously, I don't think you're reading either my posts or even your own with an open mind.
I think, therefore, I'm going to put you on ignore for awhile so that I can calm down and - hopefully - give you time to process everything that's been written.
No need to respond to me for now, as I'll not be reading or responding to your posts to me.
Peace. Out.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 1:33:55 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
Then the kings of the earth, the important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and all the slaves and free people hid themselves in caves and among the rocks in the mountains.
They said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the anger of the lamb, because the frightening day of their anger has come, and who is able to endure it?”
The opening of the 6th Seal, Revelation 6:15-17 (GW)
Humanity is cowed by the appearance of Christ in the clouds and departure of the church. Everyone remaining on earth is afraid, confused, and dismayed.
It's into this world that the Beast arrives, promising these people peace and prosperity. By the time his reign reaches its climax, here's how we see the same people, who were cowed by the departure of the church, viewed at the return of Christ on a white horse:
quote:
I saw an angel standing in the sun. He cried out in a loud voice to all the birds flying overhead, “Come! Gather for the great banquet of God.
Eat the flesh of kings, generals, warriors, horses and their riders, and all free people and slaves, both important or insignificant people.”
I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.
The beast and the false prophet who had done miracles for the beast were captured. By these miracles the false prophet had deceived those who had the brand of the beast and worshiped its statue. Both of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
The rider on the horse killed the rest with the sword that came out of his mouth. All the birds gorged themselves on the flesh of those who had been killed.
Revelation 19:17-21 (GW)
In short, those who were terrified by the appearance of Christ on the clouds in the 6th Seal (prophesied also in the Olivet Discourse) turn to the Beast for peace and are so emboldened by him, they actually march to war against Christ in Revelation 19. They end up as carrion for the birds.
Of course, none of this makes sense if the 6th Seal is not harmonized with the Olivet Discourse and Paul's letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.
Time is short. We're living in the 5th Seal.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 1:36:45 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1203
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
Time is short. We're living in the 5th Seal.
Amen brother...I think we are.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 1:41:55 PM
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Montana Marv
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Joined: 4/12/2005
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Bob
When have you ever seen the conditions of the 3rd Seal met. "A quart of wheat for a days wages, and three quarts of barley for a days wages, and do not damage the oil or the wine. When in History has this come to past. You work for a day, then you are given food. No Money has been exchanged. For this is world wide.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 2:14:03 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Time is short. We're living in the 5th Seal.
Amen brother...I think we are.
In Messiah,
Bob
Define short.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 2:18:24 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Marv...we live in the land of the plenty but many parts of the world experience these things everyday. If you were to ask them I don't think they would have any problem saying that they have experienced these things. Don’t forget that Revelation was likely written primarily to the Jews and the Middle East.
It’s a little like great tribulation…we have never seen anything like that here but again many parts of the world live with great tribulation every day, many know no other way of life.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 5:28:45 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
It’s a little like great tribulation…we have never seen anything like that here but again many parts of the world live with great tribulation every day, many know no other way of life.
Exactly. 
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/4/2010 8:30:14 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 268
Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Marv...we live in the land of the plenty but many parts of the world experience these things everyday. If you were to ask them I don't think they would have any problem saying that they have experienced these things. Don’t forget that Revelation was likely written primarily to the Jews and the Middle East.
It’s a little like great tribulation…we have never seen anything like that here but again many parts of the world live with great tribulation every day, many know no other way of life.
In Messiah,
Bob
The Bible doesn't point to just some part of the world experiencing 'great tribulation'. As terrible as the suffering is in some parts of the world is these days ,it is far less than what 'tribulation' will bring on the 'inhabitants of the world' in the space of the last3 1/2 years prior to Christ . In a portion of that time 1/3 of the population of the world will be killed. Great tribulation is much shorter in time and more people will die.
M't:24:21:
For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no,
nor ever shall be.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/5/2010 12:16:34 AM
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Stormcrow
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As some people still seem to be stumbling over the labels given the spirits of the seals earlier in this thread, I’m going to simplify this further and present Matthew 24 in parallel with Revelation 6, starting with the First Seal using those labels customarily attached to the riders.
quote:
And I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come." And I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering, and to conquer.
In the NASB version of the bible I have, the White Horse spirit is called “False Christs.” Here’s what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse to His disciples:
quote:
And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. Matthew 24:4-5 (NASB77)
The rider of the white horse: False Christs.
quote:
And when He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come." And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
The NASB describes this rider simply as “War.”
What does Christ say of this?
quote:
"And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.” Matthew 24:6 (NASB77)
The rider of the red horse: War.
quote:
And when He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." And I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard as it were a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."
The NASB describes this rider as “Famine.”
quote:
"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Matthew 24:7-8 (NASB77)
The rider of the black horse: “Famine.”
quote:
And when He broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come." And I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
This is the only spirit for whom there is not a direct parallel with Christ’s words in Matthew 24. However Death and Hell follow naturally (and logically) as the result of the first three seals: false Christ’s, war, and famine.
quote:
And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained…
The NASB labels the 5th Seal simply as “Martyrs.” Christ predicts them in Matthew 24:
quote:
"Then they will deliver you to tribulation ("thlipsis"), and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name.” Matthew 24:9 (NASB77)
As I’ve written before, the Greek word for tribulation in the 6th Seal is “thlipsis” (Strong’s Reference #2347 if you want to look it up yourself). It’s also used in John 16:33:
quote:
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation (thlipsis), but take courage; I have overcome the world."
John, writing in Revelation 1:9, uses it to describe his situation on Patmos:
quote:
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation (thlipsis) and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Thlipsis is also used in Revelation 7:14 referring to those who have “washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.”
…"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation (thlipsis), and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Now get this: Revelation 7:14 is the last time the word tribulation (“thlipsis”) is used in Revelation, however it is used 5 times before that in Revelation, ALWAYS in passages either referring to or addressing the church! After Revelation 7:14, it is not used again.
Therefore, the tribulation ends with the rapture of the church that occurs with the opening of the 6th Seal, in which Revelation 7:14 is showing the church in heaven. After the 6th Seal, when the church is taken and the 144,000 faithful remnant of Israel is sealed, then the “Day of the Lord” is ushered in:
quote:
Wail, for the day of the Lord is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man's heart will melt. And they will be terrified, Pains and anguish will take hold of them; They will writhe like a woman in labor, They will look at one another in astonishment, Their faces aflame.
Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light.
Thus I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud, And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless. I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold, And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
Therefore I shall make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the Lord of hosts In the day of His burning anger. Isaiah 13:6-13 (NASB77)
This is paralleled in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation 6: the opening of the 6th Seal, which is the rapture of the church. We will be spared this calamity, as we have had our own tribulation (thlipsis) for the past 2,000 years.
Is this all making its way through? 
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/5/2010 12:32:48 AM >
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/5/2010 11:38:58 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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One other thing I should add about my last post regarding Christ's predictions of false messiahs, war, famine, and martyrdom...
He spoke them in the very same order that they appear as the Seals in Revelation 6.
He opened the seals in Revelation 6 as He predicted their coming in Matthew 24. He knew what He was doing.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/15/2010 2:38:10 PM
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bobhickman
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REVELATION is an exciting book-
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 3/27/2010 7:02:10 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
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Fifth seal?
How about the first seal and the first horseman? Ps 110:1, Matt 22:44, Mk 12:36, Lk 20:42-43, Acts 2:34-35, Heb 1:13, Heb 10:12-13, & Deut 33:22.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 4/16/2010 10:11:39 PM
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vincentwansink
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Cog...
Russia possibly but only as it relates to the Muslim population of Russia. China does not seem to fit the picture. China has always been seen as the 200 million man army but I now see that army as being Islamic.
In Messiah,
Bob
If you put all the armies of the world together, you come up with a mere 80,000,000 men. If you includes reserves and militias you still get to only just over 100,000,000 men. Therefore I believe this army of 200,000,000 is not an army of men.
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 4/17/2010 9:32:00 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2387
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
To All
Really I think that none or these seals have been broken or opened up. If you look closely at what is said of the 2nd Seal - it's rider was given power to take peace from the earth.
I heard it said (25-30 years ago in someones message (how true or not??) that over the past 3,500 years (it may have been (3000 - 4,000), but what was said from historical records that there have been a total of only about 40 years of accumulative time in which no wars were reported.
So in order for the 2nd Seal to come forth, there must be peace in the world. If you look at the beast of Rev 13 - All followed the beast. They said, Who can make war against him? In essence, No one. Not until this beast is revealed and peace exists can this 2nd Seal be opened.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Greetings
Take a peek at this for a moment...
The peace spoken of by Jesus is that which is taken away.... Its called the rapture >
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; KEY not as the world gives do I give to you.
......This key is here... not as the world gives ....do I give to you.... that applies to everything.
quote:
So in order for the 2nd Seal to come forth, there must be peace in the world.
There already is ... in Christ Jesus... in 2 Thess 2 that peace is "kept" by that which is referred to as the restrainer, so peace is that which withholds or keeps one from falling...(the evil one)
=Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling,
Here is the KEY
and to present you faultless.... "before the presence of his glory".... with exceeding joy,
So what would that be in opposite?
What causes the falling away is Jesus "removing" his peace,
Then…. the falling away comes,
Here is what the scriptures tell us
…. instead of being presented "faultless" before the presence of …"his = (Father Gods) “glory”,
These are presented into the judgments, and in the same like manner…
INTO the presence of his wrath =(Not his Glory),
Folks confuse these 2 keys, in these references below
.....One speaks of being present before the Father “faultless”
… And the other speaks of being denied before the angels = “into the judgments”
Both occur… in what is called the rapture
Mat 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny… “Before My Father who is “in” heaven. ”..= (before the presence of…. his “glory”)
When that occurs …(whoever denies Me) these are those who are going to be presented "at fault" before the …“angels”
Because….
They have been already been …“denied” …to be presented… “Before My Father”..=(before the presence of…. his “glory”)
So that alone "is not speaking" of the great white throne..
…..And this is where Jesus makes the prophetic references
Luke 12:9 But… “he”… who denies Me before men ….will be denied before the angels of God.
….So it went from “whomever” in Mat 10:33 … to “he” Luke 12:9... = (individually)
And that word means what it says
Therefore when whomever is not presented before the father faultless… is therefore denied before the angels ….and “he” …will have = NO PEACE,
AGAIN it is word specific… it “does not include” HIS Church…. with the …“he who denies Me)
it was written that God is the only one that draws one to Christ… in the first place….
Then to be “denied” before the angels is when PEACE is “taken away” (John 14:27) … or is removed
Therefore... before that can happen,
BOTH those…. who are going to be presented "faultless" before the presence of his “glory” ….and HE that is denied before the angels = into the/ Judgment(S)
…. the restrainer….
“Must be removed”.
Otherwise it is a major contradiction of the scriptures …and… the word of the Lord Jesus, especially in Mat 13
Mat 13:48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good
” into vessels,”
but ….threw the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age.
The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 and cast them into the furnace of fire.
There will be…. wailing ….and gnashing of teeth."
Has anyone ever wondered why Jesus didn’t make reference again… about the vessels?
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 4/17/2010 11:28:11 AM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
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And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book (Dan 12:1).
Why isn't Michael already standing?
Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David.
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matthew 22:44
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mark 12:36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:42-43
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [43] Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts 2:34-35
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any times, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 10:12-13
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
So that's why Michael wasn't standing. But why must he stand again?
Rev. 6:3-4
And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. [4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Moses wrote of two lion's whelps, fully grown in Revelation, the foremost being of Judah
Judah is a lion's whelp (Gen 49:9)
the Lion of the tribe of Judah (Rev 5:5),
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war (Rev 19:11).
The other lion's whelp being of Dan.
Dan is a lion's whelp (Deut 33:22).
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer (Rev 6:2).
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 5/6/2010 2:45:40 PM
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Dene_Banger
Posts: 16
Joined: 5/6/2010
Status: offline
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We have to pay close attention to what is taking place at the opening of the seven seals, first of all we need to stay with the explanation of what the Book of Revelation is all about, and to know what the Book of the Revelation is all about we need to turn to the very first verse found in Revelation.
1[THIS IS] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass [a]in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John,
Revelation 1:1 Amplified Bible
So here in verse one of chapter one, we are told that the Book of the Revelation is all about Christ revealing (or unsealing) the divine mysteries that God the Father gave to Him (Christ) for the purpose of disclosing them and making them known to His bond servants.
1[THIS IS] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass [a]in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John,
Revelation 1:1 Amplified Bible
This being the case there was a scroll (or from the Greek biblion or Bible) that was sealed with seven seals,
1AND I saw lying on the open hand of Him Who was seated on the throne a scroll (book) written within and on the back, closed and sealed with seven seals;
2And I saw a strong angel announcing in a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll? And [who is entitled and deserves and is morally fit] to break its seals?
3And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth [in the realm of the dead, Hades] was able to open the scroll or to take a [single] look at its contents.
4And I wept audibly and bitterly because no one was found fit to open the scroll or to inspect it.
5Then one of the elders [of the heavenly Sanhedrin] said to me, Stop weeping! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root (Source) of David, has won (has overcome and conquered)! He can open the scroll and break its seven seals!
6And there between the throne and the four living creatures (beings) and among the elders [of the heavenly Sanhedrin] I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God [[d]the sevenfold Holy Spirit] Who have been sent [on duty far and wide] into all the earth.
7He then went and took the scroll from the right hand of Him Who sat on the throne.
8And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders [of the heavenly Sanhedrin] prostrated themselves before the Lamb. Each was holding a harp (lute or guitar), and they had golden bowls full of incense (fragrant spices and gums for burning), which are the prayers of God's people (the saints).
9And [now] they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and to break the seals that are on it, for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased men unto God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10And You have made them a kingdom (royal race) and priests to our God, and they shall reign [as kings] over the earth!
11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels on every side of the throne and of the living creatures and the elders [of the heavenly Sanhedrin], and they numbered ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands,
12Saying in a loud voice, Deserving is the Lamb, Who was sacrificed, to receive all the power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and majesty (glory, splendor) and blessing!
13And I heard every created thing in heaven and on earth and under the earth [in Hades, the place of departed spirits] and on the sea and all that is in it, crying out together, To Him Who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb be ascribed the blessing and the honor and the majesty (glory, splendor) and the power (might and dominion) forever and ever (through the eternities of the eternities)!
14Then the four living creatures (beings) said, Amen (so be it)! And the elders [[g]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] prostrated themselves and worshiped Him Who lives forever and ever.Revelation 5:1-14 AMP
So the Lamb (Jesus Christ) was found worthy to take the scroll and to break the seals that are on it.
9And [now] they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and to break the seals that are on it, for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased men unto God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Revelation 5:9 AMP
So if something is sealed, it means that what ever is in it is hidden from view, for example, if you have a margarine container that is sealed you can not possibly view the margarine inside; however, if the seal is removed the margarine comes into full view! So the same applies here, Christ took the scroll and He was found worthy to remove the seals? Why? Because the Book of the Revelation is all about Christ revealing the divine mysteries that God the Father gave to Him for the purpose of revealing them to us, His bond servants (Revelation 1:1)
So now we have to be careful to examine what happens as Christ removes each seal for the purpose of examining the contents in order to make them known to us, so let's look at the opening of the first seal because that sets the precedent for what is taking place as each seal is removed.
So John watched as the Lamb broke open one of the seven seals,
1THEN I saw as the Lamb broke open one of the seven seals, and as if in a voice of thunder I heard one of the four living creatures call out, Come!
2And I looked, and saw there a white horse whose rider carried a bow. And a crown was given him, and he rode forth conquering and to conquer.
Revelation 6:1-2 Amplified Bible
Now with the understanding that has been set forth in Revelation 1:1, that being that the Book of the Revelation is all about Christ unveiling the divine mysteries that God the Father gave to Him (Christ) for the purpose of revealing them to us (His bond servants), we understand that as each seal is removed something marvelous must be taking place....now let's watch closely as the first seal is opened!
1THEN I saw as the Lamb broke open one of the seven seals, and as if in a voice of thunder I heard one of the four living creatures call out, Come!
2And I looked, and saw there a white horse whose rider carried a bow. And a crown was given him, and he rode forth conquering and to conquer.
Revelation 6:1-2 Amplified Bible
As the first seal is opened, there is a voice that comes forth from one of the four living creatures saying, "Come!" the King James uses the words, "Come and see!"
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Revelation 6:1-2 King James
Upon first glance you would suppose that John is being told to come and see the first rider, but that is not what is taking place, keep in mind that we have to stay with the understanding set forth in Revelation 1:1 and that is the the Book of Revelation is all about Christ revealing the divine mysteries that God the Father gave to Him for the purpose of revealing them to His bond servants; therefore, John is told to "Come and see!" The Young's Literal Translation says, "Come and behold!" The question is, "Come and see or come and behold......what?!? To answer this question we have to turn to the original language or we'll miss this completely, the command given by one of the four living creatures (by one of the four expressions of the revelations of God to man) is, "erchomai blepo", the word, "blepo" means "perceive" and is derived from two words, "optanomai" and "horao"; optanomai meaning, "to gaze, that is, with wide open eyes, as at something remarkable" and "horao" meaning, "to discern clearly", both specifically refer to "having eyes to see." Therefore, one of the four living creatures (one of the four expressions of the revelations of God to man) broke silence and the breaking of the silence was like that of the noise of thunder and said to John, "Come and perceive--gaze at something remarkable with eyes wide open and discrn clearly." This being said, we can add our definitions directly to the Scripture and it will read like this:
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. (blepo--perceive, optanomai-gaze at something remarkable with eyes wide open and horao-discern clearly)
2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Revelation 6:1-2 King James
And what did John say? He said, "I saw", the word "saw" comes from the Greek word "eido" meaning, "to see with the idea of knowing and perceiving in such a way as to perceive-gaze at something remarkable with eyes wide open and discerned clearly, then he beheld (or from the Greek word, "idou", which is a different form of seeing) a white horse.
So what just took place?
John was told to come and perceive and discern clearly waht was revealed as one of the seals was removed and then he "eido" a white horse. In keeping with the understanding that the Book of the Revelation is all about Christ revealing the divine mysteries that God the Father gave to Him (Christ) for the purpose of revealing them to us (His bond servants) John was gazing upon the revealtion or revealing of one of the divine mysteries and it were as a noise of thunder (hence seven seals, seven divine mysteries and the sound of seven thunders) and then he beheld the associated judgement.
So what are the seven divine mysteries?
1) The Mystery of Christ in You the Hope of Glory (Colossians 1:25-27)
2) The Mystery of the Perishable Putting on the Imperishable (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)
3) The Mystery of the Plan of Redemption (Romans 16:25)
4) The Mystery of the Oneness between Christ and the Church (Ephesians 5:29-32)
5) The Mystery of the Unification of Israel (Romans 11:25-28; Ephesians 3:3-6)
6) The Mystery of Lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:7)
7) The Mystery of Christ (Ephesians 1:9-14; 1 Corinthians 2:1; Ephesians 3:3-6; Ephesians 6:19; Colossians 4:3-4; Colossians 2:2-3)
Incidently the associated judgment of the third seal speaks of global economic collapse,
5When He broke open the third seal, I heard the third living creature call out, Come and look ! And I saw, and behold, a black horse, and in his hand the rider had a pair of scales (a balance).
6And I heard what seemed to be a voice from the midst of the four living creatures, saying, A quart of wheat for a denarius [a whole day's wages], and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not harm the oil and the wine!
Revelation 6:5-6 AMP
The scales represent merchant scales, and we see the collapse of the economy in the phrase, "A quart of wheat for a denarius [a whole day's wages], and three quarts of barley for a denarius;"
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 5/6/2010 5:53:28 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2032
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: online
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Btw, I just wanted to let people know that for us chile-heads there is a restaurant named Chunkeys that has a 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse Burger that has ghost chilies, habanero hot sauce and serrano peppers.
Whew.
I'll go back where I belong. Just thought if you are in San Antonio you might get a kick out of it.
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suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: The Four Horsemen of the Four Seals - 5/8/2010 12:39:34 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2618
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
Btw, I just wanted to let people know that for us chile-heads there is a restaurant named Chunkeys that has a 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse Burger that has ghost chilies, habanero hot sauce and serrano peppers.
Whew.
I'll go back where I belong. Just thought if you are in San Antonio you might get a kick out of it.
That sounds AWESOME!
Painful, but Awesome!
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"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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