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I don't think scripture says that.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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I don't think scripture says that.

So God was "faulty" when He established the old covenant?

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The chapter 8 of Hebrews shows not only man's fault in keeping the covenant, but also the inferior function of the old.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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The chapter 8 of Hebrews shows not only man's fault in keeping the covenant, but also the inferior function of the old.

So why didn't God make the first covenant function properly instead of having to revert to "plan B"?

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

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Hebrews 8
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched , and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer . 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith , Behold , the days come , saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not , saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying , Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest . 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith , A new covenant, he hath made the first old . Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Even if "covenant" can be legitimately inserted into verses 7 & 13, this "new" covenant is described as "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying , Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest " Are Adonai's laws written on our hearts and minds and do we all know Adonai such that we need no teacher? The many threads and posts on this sight say otherwise. Even so the only thing that changes in this passage is either the removal of a need for an earthly priesthood, ie no temple, or the covenant being written on our hearts and minds. There is no further defining of the stipulations of that "new" covenant. Therefore, the two possibilities noted must be the only differences.

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ORIGINAL: Ezra
The shed blood of Christ was a necessity to establish the New Covenant, and as long as Christ did not appear, sins were only "covered". Since His one perfect and final sacrifice for sins, sins have been "purged" (Heb 1:3), the penalty for sin has been paid in full, and a New Covenant has been established.

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But in the New Covenant the sin nature is put to death and a person is changed and released from the slavery of sin and the continual reality and reminder and guilt of that nature. In the New Covenant all sin is forgiven, even the ones that could not be forgiven under the old. A person is changed and released from the power and guilt of the sin nature. The thing the old covenant could not do.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

So why didn't God make the first covenant function properly instead of having to revert to "plan B"?

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ORIGINAL: rcjames

(Heb 8:5) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

(Heb 8:6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

(Heb 8:7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

I know this passage has been used in this thread, but I want to point out verse 7 as it gives the answer to the thread's quesiton.

God established the new covenent because the old one was faulty.

Thanks
RC

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ORIGINAL: Ezra

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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The chapter 8 of Hebrews shows not only man's fault in keeping the covenant, but also the inferior function of the old.

So why didn't God make the first covenant function properly instead of having to revert to "plan B"?

The function of the Old Covenant was to prepare Israel and humanity for Christ. Therefore it functioned "properly" within its limitations.

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread



Adonai gave us the covenant, before Moshe' was ever born. He then had Moshe' record that covenant and Adonai added other stipulations "because of transgressions" of the unwritten law that existed before. In this written record, Adonai told us he would write these things on our hearts, which he is in the process of doing.

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As I said in my last post, even if the word "covenant" is implied, the only thing new is that the covenant is written on our hearts and minds.

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ORIGINAL: Corne

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread



Adonai gave us the covenant, before Moshe' was ever born. He then had Moshe' record that covenant and Adonai added other stipulations "because of transgressions" of the unwritten law that existed before. In this written record, Adonai told us he would write these things on our hearts, which he is in the process of doing.

Please support that with scripture.

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ORIGINAL: ChainSaw

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As I said in my last post, even if the word "covenant" is implied, the only thing new is that the covenant is written on our hearts and minds.

How can you say this? Hebrews points out things that are 'new' and different than the Mosaic covenant now that Christ has come. New things that do not come from the law, and actually make some of the law obsolete. It's not right to only measure the differences between the first and second covenants by Jeremiah's prophecy alone and ignore everything else the Bible teaches that is different between the two covenants.

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ORIGINAL: Corne

You must ignore all of the NT contrasts then, of the promise of Abraham to the law covenant of Moses.

You are sharing a theory. One not supported in the NT.

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

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ORIGINAL: Corne

You must ignore all of the NT contrasts then, of the promise of Abraham to the law covenant of Moses.

You are sharing a theory. One not supported in the NT.

That is your opinion. To hold that opinion you must ignore all of the similarities between the covenant made with Avraham and that recorded by Moshe'. I do not believe your theory is supported by the Scriptures.

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread



Paul tells us, (Rom. 5:12-14) "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." This affirms that what is refered to as the "first", was not really the "first". It is called the first because it is the first detailed record.

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ORIGINAL: Corne

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Paul tells us, (Rom. 5:12-14) "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." This affirms that what is refered to as the "first", was not really the "first". It is called the first because it is the first detailed record.

So we can't just take the Word's word for it? It is an accident that the word first is in there?

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12 Wherefore *, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned : 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come .

It's saying the law came at Moses time. Before Moses no law, sin was not imputed.

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ORIGINAL: Corne

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made . He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say , that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul , that it should make the promise of none effect . 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.