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ORIGINAL: rolling

Hello Bolt. Thanks for your comment bro. I do have to respectively disagree however. 35 years of observation. I've seen the Spirit quenched a myriad of times. The reason? The program must prevail as scheduled. Not just in a singular gathering. I still must emphasize the modern construct is the number one cause of hinderance. Still I appreciate you chiming in. God bless.

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ORIGINAL: rolling

I see that there is a lot of troubles going on in the lives of 'pastors'. I truly believe that God is shaking things up....finally. God desires to reclaim His rightful place in our gatherings. He loves His sheep and knows the damage being done by the Nicolaitan doctrine that has stagnated the body of Christ. Nico: power over. Laitan: people.

So, are you implying that God is intentionally causing problem in the lives of the pastors simply to remove them? The Nicolatian doctrine is not practiced by all pastors. You are generalizing my friend.

'One man' was never meant to 'do it all'....by himself. Nor was 'one man' to be exalted above the other sheep into an office or position. This top/down authority structure was soundly condemned in 1Peter5:3 and Matt.20:25-28.
1Cor.12 and 24 display to us a typical N.T. gathering. Note, as you read, the absence of the single pastor/leader construct. All the body 'parts' ministered in turn one unto another. Makes one wonder who gets the paycheck if all are ministering.

This is a very, very old argument and one that still continues as evidenced by your rant. Many, many churches are doing some wonderful works with your "non-godly" method of leadership.

Note the absence of the same as you read all the salutations of Paul. Always 'unto the church'. Occasionally 'unto the elders'. Never unto Pastor so and so. But you rightly ask 'but what about the 5-fold ministry where it mentions 'pastors'. Note it is plural. Poimen or shepherds watched over the flock with great care but never hindered the workings of the Spirit and His functions within the 'body'. In most churches you are instructed to sit and shut up except for an occasional 'amen' in order to encourage the 'professionals'.

So, on one hand you don't feel it is right to have the office of pastor and then on the other hand you see it mentioned in the Bible???? There are some churches who cannot afford to pay more than one pastor. In that case, a good pastor will rely upon it's board of elders for much needed leadership. However, there are a number of churches who have more than one pastor and so, therefore, you do see the plurality of leadership.

The elders in the first century provided teaching and guidance but never took it upon themselves to be the sole ruler over the others or to anoint themselves the ONLY one who 'mimisters'...'pay me'. They were attentive to the moving of the Spirit not frozen in a packaged pre-programed service. Never usurping the headship of Christ. One Head was acknowledged, not a group of little heads that we call the 'pastoral team', the paid professionals as it were.

Clearly, you have a STRONG objection to the pastoral leadership method and that is your opinion. Again, there are many churches who do have pre-packaged and pre-programmed services that do not allow for the move of the Holy Spirit. However, I grew up in a Pentecostal church with pastoral leadership who got out of the way and allowed the Holy Spirit to work in His own way.

Jesus yearns to be Head over His ekklesia. He has, for the most part, been relegated to the 'back of the bus'. His hands are tied except for an occasional 'move of the Spirit'. Again, He loves his children and has grown weary of the 'pew potatoe syndrome'. Church should not be just a 'spectator sport' for just a handful of 'experts' to enjoy and many times, burn out on.
I realize that most who are reading this are objecting every step of the way. I believe the statistic is 53% of 'pastors' are suffering from 'burn out' yearly. Please don't quote me. At any rate the number is very large. I submit that the reason is because they are trying to fulfill a 'position' that God never ordained. Some of you are hearing me loud and clear and it is like a burden being lifted as you read. To you are the ones this clear message is for at this time. Your hunger for an organic gathering as opposed to an organizational gathering is of the Spirit of God. Now I got folks mad at me. I'm truly sorry for that, but I can no longer, as thousands of other dear saints, keep silent on this timely matter. Please excuse my forwardness and sloppy presentation. I'm just a lowly 'blue collar' kinda a guy, that falls on his face about every 5 minutes, with a 'burning in my bones' about the condition of the ekklesia[church]. We need a total reformation not a tweaking of a concreted system. Luther tried that and little changed. devon, a servant.

If you quote a statistic and don't want to be quoted, then please don't quote it. I am so sorry that you have been wounded by some bad examples of pastoral leadership but you are unfairly generalizing and placing all pastoral leadership churches in a box that just wants to get thrown out by you. I would personally contact each and every denomination and voice your disapproval of their "un-godly" leadership styles and start your movement that way.

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ORIGINAL: bolt.

The Spirit is quenched according to the choices and the sovereign will of the Spirit, not because people have any capacity to limit God.

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ORIGINAL: Eutychus

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ORIGINAL: rolling

Hello Bolt. Thanks for your comment bro. I do have to respectively disagree however. 35 years of observation. I've seen the Spirit quenched a myriad of times. The reason? The program must prevail as scheduled. Not just in a singular gathering. I still must emphasize the modern construct is the number one cause of hinderance. Still I appreciate you chiming in. God bless.

I think you meany "respectfully disagree".

In 43 years of observation (since I was born again at age 15), I've only witnessed a one-man control in TV organizations or groups like Jim Jones/David Koresh whose messaages are nothing like the Bible. In the countless churches I've seen up close and the ones I've been a member never had a single man rule. Instead, they have been structured on the biblical model.

Perhaps that is what you've been observing, TV organizations. I can't imagine that you've observed many actual churches built on a one-man rule.

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ORIGINAL: SteelCurtain

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ORIGINAL: Eutychus

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ORIGINAL: rolling

Hello Bolt. Thanks for your comment bro. I do have to respectively disagree however. 35 years of observation. I've seen the Spirit quenched a myriad of times. The reason? The program must prevail as scheduled. Not just in a singular gathering. I still must emphasize the modern construct is the number one cause of hinderance. Still I appreciate you chiming in. God bless.

I think you meany "respectfully disagree".

In 43 years of observation (since I was born again at age 15), I've only witnessed a one-man control in TV organizations or groups like Jim Jones/David Koresh whose messaages are nothing like the Bible. In the countless churches I've seen up close and the ones I've been a member never had a single man rule. Instead, they have been structured on the biblical model.

Perhaps that is what you've been observing, TV organizations. I can't imagine that you've observed many actual churches built on a one-man rule.

Do you believe that churches that have one pastor (if only because the church cannot afford more than one salary) are un-godly?

Do you believe that churches that have more than one pastor (pastoral team) are un-godly?

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ORIGINAL: Eutychus

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ORIGINAL: SteelCurtain

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ORIGINAL: Eutychus

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ORIGINAL: rolling

Hello Bolt. Thanks for your comment bro. I do have to respectively disagree however. 35 years of observation. I've seen the Spirit quenched a myriad of times. The reason? The program must prevail as scheduled. Not just in a singular gathering. I still must emphasize the modern construct is the number one cause of hinderance. Still I appreciate you chiming in. God bless.

I think you meany "respectfully disagree".

In 43 years of observation (since I was born again at age 15), I've only witnessed a one-man control in TV organizations or groups like Jim Jones/David Koresh whose messaages are nothing like the Bible. In the countless churches I've seen up close and the ones I've been a member never had a single man rule. Instead, they have been structured on the biblical model.

Perhaps that is what you've been observing, TV organizations. I can't imagine that you've observed many actual churches built on a one-man rule.

Do you believe that churches that have one pastor (if only because the church cannot afford more than one salary) are un-godly?

Do you believe that churches that have more than one pastor (pastoral team) are un-godly?

MOST of the churches I've been in only had one pastor (and usually some deacons) and MOST of those men were godly leaders, called to minister. Those churches had 300 or less members.

My current church, with over 3500 members, has a team of ministers with a senior Pastor (and a group of deacon servants to assist them with ministry). I believe God has called these mininsters to this church.

In none of these churches did the lone pastor or with a team of ministers & senior pastor did one man rule the church. IMHO, God calls servant leaders, not dictators. Where you find a dictator, you find an un-Christ-like situation.

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ORIGINAL: bolt.

The sovereign choice of God to respond in a gentlemanly way is not the slightest bit the same as indicating that our choices have power over God, so as to enact limitations on Him.

We have the choice to not respond to His influence when He is calling us. That's all. And that only limits us.

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ORIGINAL: bolt.

I understand what you are describing, but the vocabulary commonly used to describe such incidents reflects an error of theology. It implies that the Spirit is not sovereign, free, capable or powerful.

I would 'translate' your story like this:

We can resist the influence of the Spirit within ourselves when we are consumed with our own agenda. The Spirit generally chooses not to push through such resistance. When this becomes normal in groups, it tends to result in the running of programs and very little evidence of the Spirit manifesting spontaneously.

In the situation where a guest speaker was planned, the Spirit prompted a Christian leader (superintendent) to do something other than follow that plan. That Christian leader submitted himself to that command-influence and enacted what he perceived to be the desire of the Spirit. Another Christian leader criticized that choice because he felt it would have been more fitting to do what had been planned.

The implication being that if the second leader had had control of the situation, it seems likely that he would have resisted the influence of the Spirit, which would have resulted in the events occurring as planned, but outside of the Spirit's desire for the situation.

The difference of vocabulary centers around words like 'limit' and 'allow'. Those are words we use for people that we have superiority over. More appropriate terms for Someone who is our sovereign Lord are words like 'resist' and 'submit'... 'disobey' or 'follow'.

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Do you believe that churches that have one pastor (if only because the church cannot afford more than one salary) are un-godly?

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Do you believe that churches that have more than one pastor (pastoral team) are un-godly?

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MOST of the churches I've been in only had one pastor (and usually some deacons) and MOST of those men were godly leaders, called to minister. Those churches had 300 or less members.

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In none of these churches did the lone pastor or with a team of ministers & senior pastor did one man rule the church.

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Another change we noticed was in years past the church would bring in other pastors for conferences. Not anymore. All speakers were from within the church.

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ORIGINAL: rolling

I've always had the responce to a short discourse of mine being 'prove what you are saying. Or what are you trying to say..explain it.'
Then if I lengthen an explaination I'm accused if 'ranting'. This smear stems from a heart of concreted bias and an unteachable spirit. I try every couple of years to test the water. I'll check back in with you in 2 more years.

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Bolt, again I respectfully disagree. We are instructed not to quench the Spirit.